"According to NASA's Definition of Life, I'm Not Alive" - Why Nobody Can Define Life | Dr. Kate Adamala

Life Definition

0:00that just shows you that there is really no good definition of life in your world life is not clearly defined i think nasa has a working definition self-sustaining chemical system capable of darwinian evolution that's a fantastic definition but according to that definition of life i'm not alive the fact that we don't fully understand life right now doesn't mean to me that there's something that we're unable to understand it just means we left data at this point you can create spud cells that feed on carbon in the air is that what you're talking about

0:34i'm mostly talking about the molecules we need a way to make all the molecules that our civilization uses right now if you put molecules under the right conditions in the right environment they will start self-assembling and the emergent property of that assembly is what we call life it's definitely a milestone but it's not a mic drop we're not done we're showing that

Guest Introduction

0:56you can escape this gravity well of evolution could you uh introduce yourself to listeners give some of your background i know i know that you've been working in this area for a while you had cinels i think they were called before spud cells if you could give some of that background and as i said state what the goal of this research is my name is keita ramala i'm originally from poland where i studied

1:27chemistry then i got my phd in biophysics in italy in rome and then i moved to the states for the other half of my phd in origin of life and biophysics of origin of life and then i did a brief stint in neurobiology synthetic neurobiology as a postdoc that taught me a lot one of the things that it did teach me is that i don't like neurobiology and i don't want to work on that so when i started my own lab i wanted to continue the practical applicability of research that i picked up during my neurobiology

2:07work i wanted to know that my research the things that i'm doing are actually good for something

Research Goal

2:13but i was really drawn to go back to my roots to work on something as cool as origin of life as astrobiology so i basically wanted to combine that curiosity driven research that i've done in my early training with the practical biomedical economical applicability of the work that i learned during my postdoc and that led me to synthetic biology and specifically synthetic cell engineering and the overarching goal of my research is to make biology a general purpose technology right now biology is

2:47very specific we can make a lot of things with biology but there are very specific things and general purpose technology is something that you can pick up and apply to a new direction new application new purpose without the need to re-engineer the whole chassis like i can take my work computer and start watching dog videos anytime without having to rewrite the operating system and that's the kind of a philosophy that's the purpose that i want to apply to biology to moving atoms with

3:22biology and natural biology is not a general purpose technology and i don't think it i don't believe it can be because natural biology is very complicated it has a lot of dependencies that we don't understand and that's that led me to synthetic cell engineering um if you want to make a cell that can be reprogrammed on demand that can be applied to whatever application you want to making medicine diagnostics making molecules for bioeconomy that needs to be a platform that's fully engineerable and you do not have full

3:57engineerability on a system that you cannot fully describe and that's what natural cells are it's they're amazing but they're not fully describable they're not chemically defined and that's where

Synthetic Cell Engineering

4:09synthetic cells place themselves there have some advantages of biology the fact that we can take energy and take feedstock and turn it into whatever atoms we want whatever products we want it replicates it grows it can make more of itself so the cost go down but we have this engineer ability we can exactly say i want to make x pathway with y product that's fascinating and and so it's not you know in

4:40artificial intelligence the motivating uh question for a lot of ai researchers is to understand or how does the brain work what is consciousness uh all of that uh so in your work it's not to understand how life begins it's it's it's it's sort of that's there there may be some insight into that but you're more interested in how can

5:13you manipulate uh biology to produce products both actually there is a very strong curiosity driven aspect to my research i would really like to understand what makes molecules tick what make because life to me is a complex behavior of molecules i don't think life as a phenomena has anything magical to it i think life is just a manifestation of properties of molecules and we don't understand right now how that happened how did those molecules became what we call alive so

5:49there's definitely this quest to understand how non-living molecules become life and there's also this quest to understand both healthy and diseased states of life um our own cells how do we make a full model of a healthy cell of a sick cell how do we differentiate between those two how we understand those processes better and all of that i think richard feinman said um what i cannot build i cannot understand

6:21and all of those processes of cells everything that makes us what we are cannot be fully understood unless we get our hands on every molecule that makes that possible so there definitely is this foundational curiosity driven aspect of my research um but the main big picture motivation is that i want

Motivation

6:43this planet to be habitable in 50 years i want to leave something you know i want our kids to have a world to live on and that's not i think that's not possible unless we switch to moving all the molecules with biology instead of dead biology petrochemicals so that practical aspect is the main like everyday driver but there definitely is that that childhood curiosity of of what actually life is how do molecules make life

7:15and those both are combined in the work we're doing yeah uh and just for listeners uh you know as in in ai work uh understanding and consciousness are very amorphous terms that nobody can really nail down uh and in in your world uh life is not clearly defined uh i think nasa has

7:46uh working definition self-sustaining chemical system capable of darwinian evolution and that that definition that that's a fantastic definition but according to that definition of life i'm not alive yeah because yeah yeah and that just shows you that there is really no good definition of life that's right although you're talking about the the the reproducibility but your your you're defining a single organism as opposed to a class of organisms and certainly reproducibility is a

8:26feature of of the human race it may not be of every organism within the human race spud cells are not self-sustaining uh and they don't truly uh and they don't truly evolve so uh are you leaning on the absence of a definition to keep the question open or or and you're you're looking for a definition or is that beside the point to me it's beside the point because i think there is no clear boundary on the molecular level between life and

9:02non-life i think life life and non-life are opposite ends of a continuum just a sec kate i'm sorry yeah i'm sorry to bother you sir while you're on the pottle but did i hear you asking for potatoes

9:20no well regard i'm recording i'll talk to you afterward okay of course apologies won't happen again carry on

Life and Non-Life

9:31i'm sorry kate uh go ahead to me it's beside the point because i think there is no clear boundary on the molecular level between life and non-life i think life life and non-life are opposite ends of a continuum there's a spectrum of complexity spectrum of organization and we can see that even in our kind of an instinctive definition if you look at a human if i you know if someone cuts off my head i will

10:03immediately become dead by any medical legal human definition but most of my cells will keep going for quite a while and the cells in my gut the cells that make me but are not me the bacteria in my gut will keep going happily long after the legal me is dead and that that just shows you life is not at a strict definable phenomena and i love those discussions for fun um over beers but it's not a

10:34scientific problem that we're really um that we really need to solve or i don't think it's even solvable what's fascinating about this work is that you have created and and i'll ask you to i've read the paper i've read a lot of the articles about the paper uh if if you can give us kind of a a brief give listeners a brief for what has happened you have this mixture of purified chemicals or molecules

11:04uh and you have this mechanism that forms a lipid bubble around them and then you you can introduce uh

11:18nutrients and uh ribosomes uh that then can can work on the dna in the uh inside uh the the cell or what

Spud Cell Explanation

11:31you're calling a spud cell uh can you just describe what exactly is going on in in in simple terms and those that want a deeper explanation can read the paper i think you described it really perfectly um so what we have is a mixture of purified defined molecules and those molecules are derived mostly from living sources they're bacterial proteins or proteins from other sources that were expressed and

12:04purified from bacteria and they're small molecules that you know to me they come from a shelf from a bottle on a shelf and they end up in that bottle because someone purified it from mostly a natural source so they're all biologically derived and we mix those molecules at certain concentrations under the right ph in the in the right solution and they start rebuilding some of the elements of life the translation um protein translation metabolism restarts when you put those molecules together at the right

12:39conditions and then we take this we load it up with a genome so a dna plasmids that contain the genes that we want ourselves to have and then we stuff all of that into a lipid vesicle so a lipid bubble that's very much like the membranes of natural cells and that's what a spud cell is and what happens once we start that experiment is that the spud cell is capable of feeding so it eats um nutrient rich little liposomes or exosomes and then it can also divide it can make daughter cells um it's always

13:15daughter cells for some reason it's never sun cells it makes a whole bunch of little daughter cells yeah although that part is an external uh mechanism that you apply to the spud cells it doesn't i mean i understand it grows with the nutrients it absorbs these uh these nutrient uh bubbles uh they fuse into the

13:46the skin of the skin of the of the spud cell and so the skin of the spud cell grows those nutrients that are mixed into the inside of the cell and metabolized but when when the cell is grown to a size uh that it you want it to split into two cells you do that mechanically that's not a natural process no the um the part of the paper the results in the first few figures are with mechanical division

14:22but then the later in the paper we have genetically encoded division and i think every figure is is labeled which one is mechanical and which one is genetically encoded um that there is a genetically encoded division and that's why people get excited about this because this is the first example of not only genetically encoded feeding but also genetically encoded division there is a mechanism where a spud cell expresses a protein and that protein goes to the membrane and pokes its head

14:52out of the membrane and when that protein is present it recruits a giant protein from the environment that induces curvature of the membrane and that leads to division so even though the giant protein comes from media their recruitment which is the key step to bring that protein and start division comes from the generic activity of the spud cell itself this is a little bit off topic but it's something i wondered for a while you know michael levin who does the uh yeah the work with the flatworms yes i saw him

15:30speak years ago and he it's he manipulates the electrical uh field inside and outside and between

15:43organelles or whatever they're called inside the flatworm with different uh solutions different uh with different phs and uh is is that happening in the side of spud spell is there is there any

16:02manipulation of the electrical activity or is this uh purely uh uh something else it's purely something else we do not right now rely on electrical activity i wish we did it's one of my on my wish lists to make spiking synthetic cells that have electrical potential that we can manipulate uh but right now uh there is no electrical activity that that we manipulate across the membranes

16:32yeah and and from what i understand as well the uh the the two most critical elements spud cell needs to replicate its or to to grow um are the ribosomes and the transfer rna right and you introduce those from uh e coli bacteria is is that correct we purify we purify those from e coli and then

17:04feed it to the spud cell and what would it take obviously this must be on on your wish list wish wish list or uh

17:17roadmap

17:20i understand that it's very complicated and and you want that's not the problem you're working on but how would you create the dna uh to inside the cell to build its own uh ribosomes or transfer rna that's a great question that actually is a problem we're working on um this is my personal next big

17:50step that i want to work on is how do you make ribosomes introducing the dna that we need to make ribosomes is actually not a big deal um we can express all of the proteins that we need um to um make a

18:09make a ribosome and make all the tRNAs the problem is though that if we express all those proteins put them together they do not form an active ribosome and nobody knows why and that's to me right now if you ask me to name single there's there's many but if you if i were to pick a single biggest mystery that we need to solve in in bioengineering i would say this process called ribogenesis how do you make new ribosomes is on absolutely on top of my list we can put together all the proteins and that's been done

18:41before and those proteins unless you really coax them with a lot of external help they will not even approximate an active ribosome george church's lab demonstrated um few years ago now that it's possible to take all of those purified proteins and under very special conditions um once you purified all of them you can put them back together and some ribosomal activity will be detected but it's not a robust process that you can do as you're expressing them inside the synthetic cell

19:16and i think we're missing something we're missing either some protein some small molecule or some environmental factors and that's what my lab is working on right now there are two directions you can attack this from you're doing bottom up where you take the purified molecules mix them in in very precise uh quantities or ratios and they start interacting uh i was asking about the electrical

19:47potential i mean what starts them reacting maybe you can talk about that uh but the uh the ribosome the other way to attack this is by taking a living cell and and removing as much as much as you can and still have it active i think that was done

20:11you know in 20 years ago or something that was on my pregnant 30s when you look at a ribosome in a living cell are there any insights into how that is forming is it is it being constructed uh are the instructions for building ribosomes in the dna they must be yes and the the way it happens in in living cells is that it

20:42happens in stages as those proteins and rna are being made so it's not like everything is first made and then staged and then assembled it's being assembled as you're making it and i think this is the step we're missing is we don't know exactly in what order those things need to be assembled but we do know that you can't just let it all wait there sit um and then assemble you have to keep assembling it as as it's being made these are artificially uh created do i call them vesicles what do i call them the

21:21vesicles is what we call them yeah vesicles okay that have nutrients and and the ribosomes and tRNA inside them uh and that uh fuses uh with with the outside of the cell but it fuses locking onto a docking tag that is expressed from within the cell that fascinated me that it's it that

21:52the cell does create the mechanism even though you're introducing artificially uh created uh vesicles that have this material in it the the fact that it can fuse with the spud cell is a function of the spud cell's dna or internal mechanisms is that right that's correct um the feeding is induced by

22:24basically the cell's ability to express the proteins that ask for food so it's like a little bird opening his mouth it's that's what the sponsor is doing essentially can you talk about is this purely atomic bonds being formed between molecules i mean what is the the spark that starts all of this happening that a lot of people ultimately would call life that it starts happening spontaneously if you put all of

22:58these molecules in the right uh quantities in in close proximity that's the beauty of it it starts happening because of the properties of those molecules and that's why i said earlier that i don't think there's anything special about the phenomena of life as as a i think it's a property of molecules if you put molecules under the right conditions in the right environment they will start self-assembling and the emergent property of that assembly is what we call life there is nothing

Emergence of Life

23:34special about a spud cell or really any other cell that does not come from properties of atoms that make it and the fact that we don't fully understand life right now doesn't mean to me that there's something that we're unable to understand it just means we we lack data at this point which on one hand you might think it's kind of a lax the the mystery and romance of of what life is but to me that is the ultimate romance that is the ultimate mystery because that means the universe

24:08is posed to give rise to life the exact physical chemical conditions of the universe is enabled creation of the molecules that eventually are predisposed to become life that's to me that that doesn't get more magical than that how does a real a living cell feed is it through a similar mechanism these protein tags that capture it depends um the process that the spud cell uses to feed is

24:38very similar to phagocytosis it's a process that's where a cell kind of engulfs a piece of food another cell or it could be an exosome and that's one process of feeding most cells either if they're predators they feed by basically engulfing another cell many other cells feed by just uptaking nutrients molecule molecular nutrients directly from the environment spud cell does that too through its membrane pores there is an optimized growth solution for it um so it's one of the mechanisms mutation that you

25:17introduced allowed some spud cells to feed more aggressively and grow larger and eventually out compete the smaller ones that mutation was introduced to the dna is that right yes right by me artificially i i wanted to clarify yes we introduced those mutations artificially and that's why i claim that spud cell is not capable of evolution right now even though it is capable of selection

25:49if you give it a better mutation that mutation will win after a few generations but i have to give it that mutation it doesn't arise spontaneously so that's why to me that's not evolution cells are dividing whether or not it's uh mechanically or or internally triggered if they're dividing i mean you were saying in the paper that about only about 30 percent of the divided cells the daughter cells carried complete

26:19uh dna is it possible if i mean mutations are errors in the replication of dna is it possible if you did this at some monstrous scale that you would start seeing spontaneous mutations absolutely i think if you scale it up enough you would start seeing spontaneous mutations arising in that population um it's not a mechanism we can rely on right now just because we don't have infinite resources and

26:50infinite volumes that's why i would like a better evolvability better evolution mechanism so the evolution evolution you're inducing it but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen naturally if this uh we're in a primordial sea you know yes if you had the scale if you had the volume of a primordial sea and a few million years it would totally start evolving it just you know my i work on the scale of a

27:23page length of the phd not length of the primary evolution so we can't really wait quite that long is it possible now with these increasingly powerful models to to run this computationally and see what happens after you know a few trillion iterations i think it's absolutely possible we're working with some collaborators to develop that model to um you basically in in order to as you know way better

27:53than me in order to get anything useful out of ai the quality of your training data has to be really top-notch you have to have a lot of high quality clean training data so that's what we're working on right now is is making models that will help us speed up that um iteration and evolution process a little you're working toward this goal was the spud cell surprising to you the the success of this or have there been so many iterations that you finally got to this point and it's incomplete and there are a lot

28:31of things that it doesn't do but at least you're here and and it's just a milestone on a long road i mean how do you feel about what what you've done with spud cells i feel incredibly proud of our team and i feel very happy that we got it to this point um i feel both surprised and not um i'm surprised because i'm always surprised when experiments work there's so many failed experiments um in this field like in any experimental science that when something finally works it is in a way a pleasant surprise

29:06but i'm also not surprised because we designed it to work um we built the whole thing from scratch and it's definitely a milestone but it's not a mic drop we're not done we're not going home yet it's the

29:22big milestone that shows what's possible that's why we're making naming analogies to sputnik we're we're showing that you can escape this gravity well of evolution you can put molecules together into a system that starts making lifelike noises but it's not a complete system and it will not hopefully ever be completed um i think this is a platform that will always be changing that will always be evolving into something better you were saying at the beginning that well certainly understanding how life

29:56life arises from from molecules uh is is you know one of the goals uh the other is to create this kind of chassis on which you can biology as uh as a workhorse for for in medicine or material science today the spud cell does uh a marker protein and you call it a glowing marker protein first of all

30:28what does a glowing marker protein mean it's a fluorescent protein so a glowing as in it it it makes fluorescence it's it's a gfp it's that workhorse of synthetic biology a green fluorescent protein and protein originally from um jellyfish so the fact that you can that that the spud cell can make this uh how big a jump is from that to it making a useful uh protein drug like insulin it's quite a bit

31:04of a jump but less than it seems like it's um insulin in particular it's tricky because you have to post-translationally process it um other drugs will probably come first um high value drugs that use different building blocks like there are some antibiotics there are some protein therapeutics that use amino acids that are not canonical so not one of those 22 amino acids that all organisms put into um proteins and spud cell right now could be programmed to to make most of those the bottleneck in scaling that

31:42up so it actually becomes a useful therapeutic is the spud cells inefficient replication because programming it to make something is relatively easy programming it to make something at scale is hard and you don't you you're not going to make money on a drug unless you learn how to do it at scale and that's why we're pushing for better metabolism for replication now because that's what really is going to enable applications and the idea is so it's not actually expressing the protein inside the cell it's

32:19it's it's uh having the cell reproduce efficiently and uh is that the bottleneck yes um that's why our discovery is so significant because we show that it's possible to make those cells grow and replicate and now the big big goal is to make them grow and replicate robustly enthusiastically i would say and then you could have the the plasmids or the dna inside the cell uh expressing uh a drug protein of some

32:56sort that's correct that's the goal then then you would what would you do you would have a vat of spud cells and then you would dissolve the liposome uh exterior and you'd be left and you know separate what's left and you would you would be able to purify wow that's that's or you could convince even easier you could convince the potato to give out its product the spud cell could be programmed in a way that it would secrete

33:26the product into the media and then it would be much easier to separate it i see yeah yeah uh so plastics and materials are very different uh because there's a whole multi-step enzyme

33:50string of of interactions that need to take place not not just one uh gene expression has anyone shown that's feasible in a system like that or is this just uh conceptual people have shown that um polymers can be made in that cell free system that's the cytoplasm of spud cell as far as i know nothing of economical value has been expressed in a synthetic cell yet but that might mostly be because we

34:21haven't had the thing grow and replicate so scaling it up is just ridiculously expensive and what do you think about uh that i mean from what you understand uh so far what do you think uh led to life i mean as you said maybe it's not as mysterious as people have historically thought do you think that that the conditions were correct on earth there all of these chemicals and you know

34:56molecules in in in the air and in you know the the the water or whatever medium was covering the earth and that these molecules just spontaneously found each other and started interacting and then grew a membrane as protection or something and that it just it it it just happened that way rather than there being as i said some i don't know i guess we're all

35:31thinking of frankenstein you know the lightning coming down i mean there's some electricals i think definitely electrical impulses helped with the origin of life processes because they gave energy for certain reactions to happen um but that's still a property of matter the fact that we had an atmosphere that was capable of producing electric discharge is a property of matter it's a property of that atmosphere yeah yeah i'm sorry to take the magic out of it no it's that's that's what i love

36:03about this uh i mean that's what's as you said it's still magical it just is is understandable uh your paper argues that a spud cell can't survive outside the lab because it needs chemicals it would never find in the wild it's a milestone toward evolvable autonomous cells uh that could find uh the the things it needs

36:34the chemicals it needs in the wild i mean presumably you could so that it it could it could use chemicals that are not purified or that um exist in nature that's the goal yes i hope that uh we will be able

Safety Concerns

36:51to get spud cell to the point when it is capable of autonomous survival in the environment that's what we need to really scale up this technology yeah and you talk about in the paper uh this the safety issue uh and and actually in a couple of years ago you you led the call to pause a mirror life research which i was not aware of until i started reading uh your stuff um and and you see the the you you link

37:31spud cells to that debate i mean uh so does the spud cell move the world closer to mirror cell capability uh and if it does how do you how do you prevent that i don't think spud cell moves us closer to any red line on mirror cell research because spud cell does not use any mirror enantiomers it uses all the normal natural enantiomers of all the building blocks and that's the big bottleneck in making a mirror cell and i

38:08hope it remains a bottleneck is that we just don't have the building blocks for it so a spud cell doesn't doesn't to me doesn't count as an enabling technology for mirror life because it doesn't make us any closer to solving this big problem of where the hell do we get a bucket of mirror ribosomes we don't have a source right now and i hope we never do yeah and just explain to listeners what um mirror life refers to every molecule exists in two different forms every biological molecule can have those

38:45two forms that we call enantiomers or isomers there is the one form that all life uses and then there's the other form which is literally a mirror image of that molecule and life set on using dna rna and proteins of a certain enantiomer a certain form so we had this idea that if we take all the same molecules but off a mirror enantiomer of natural molecules we could put together a whole cell that's

39:15made of those mirror molecules and we know that those mirror molecules interact with each other the very same way that natural molecules interact with each other um they can the enzymes can recognize mirror substrates mirror proteins recognize mirror dna so you could have this whole mirror biology world and we wanted to do it because we hoped that there would be no crosstalk between natural and mirror biology that we could make drugs that are not recognized by immune system so you could treat a

39:47patient without immune response and we also hope that you could have bioreactors so means of producing things with biology that cannot be contaminated by an environmental pathogen or a phage or virus because that mirror biology is kind of insulated from natural biology and as we contemplated um the consequences of that and started actually experimentally working towards that um other people immunologists and um environmental biologists pointed out that if you have an organism that could

40:20possibly be so stealth then you don't want to have that organism because it could basically fly under the radar it could replicate in the environment uncontrollably and that's what led us to this big biosafety and biosecurity analysis of mirror life and we concluded that as cool as it sounds to make a mirror cell it should never be done because there is no way to do it safely what happens to all these mirror molecules in nature are they inanimate objects i mean what they exist naturally is that right

40:55some of them exist naturally but not many of them um most of the molecules complex biological molecules that we find in nature right now come from biology and biology is very peculiar about what which of those forms which of those enantiomers it wants to use and it doesn't let much of the opposite one to exist which is why i said we don't really have a source of the mirror enantiomers to build a cell that's why spud cells not really solving this big problem because it's not giving us an abundance of the opposite

41:30chirality opposite enantiomer molecules is that um research stopped now since the your movement in 2024 yes um as far as we know all the big research initiatives all over the world that we're aiming at building mirror cell or technologies that can lead to mirror cells um have stopped gotta ask again since i'm so focused on ai uh you know anthropics mythos model that uh that is has not been released publicly

42:07they've released the fable 5 model which is a supposedly safer but i was using fable 5 to understand parts of your paper and it it would downgrade to opus 4.8 it would not allow me to use fable 5 presumably because of these safety concerns but now there are open source models that are as powerful uh coming out of china is it possible for uh people to use those models to understand mirror molecules or how to create them

42:45it's definitely possible to use the models um to understand those molecules um understanding the molecules is not going to get you any closer to mirror life though you still have to physically get your hands on those molecules and that's luckily a really difficult uh thing to do yeah yeah luckily for us let's just uh finish up then with uh spud cells what what is what are the safety concerns with spud cells

43:16if you uh manage to have them uh self-replicate robustly if you manage to have them uh feed robustly uh as you said right now they wouldn't exist outside of the lab but if they could uh use uh molecules discovered in nature is the concern that they you would not be able to stop them replicating them

43:48no because spud cells are made of the same molecules that the rest of biology so they are susceptible to everything else that the rest of biology is susceptible to you can treat them with antibiotics you can build um those mechanisms into them that stop their replication if they find themselves in the wild if that's what you want they can also be recognized by immune systems and they can be eaten just plain eaten in the environment they they can be attacked by predators they can be

44:19infected by viruses so all the safety and security concerns with spud cells are the same as with the rest of bioengineered natural biology so if you're making an yeast strain or a bacteria strain for bioengineering all the same concerns containment and safety security concerns apply to spud cells final question do you do you expect quote unquote engineered life to uh to be achieved in in your career i sure hope so that's kind of i'm betting my whole career on that i i think we have to we as

44:56the civilization have to have engineered life because otherwise we're not going to keep our way of life keep our civilization unless we find a way to engineer biology to make all the molecules that we need and and the reason is for example uh global warming and and uh you know you need something i mean carbon capture for example you can create uh spud cells that that feed on carbon

45:27in the air or something is that what you're talking about yes i'm mostly talking about the molecules we need a way to make all the molecules that our civilization uses right now and we we cannot keep getting them from oil and then you know we can stop the climate change and then we can start working on reversing it on mitigating the effects but we absolutely have to do it because if we don't then we're just screwed there is no way for this civilization to continue for people to have the lifestyle we

45:58do and enjoy and keep the planet habitable okay well i'll leave it there