Apple Sues OpenAI Over Trade Secrets, Siri AI is Impressive, ChatGPT HomePod?

0:00After careful consideration, I've decided not to endorse your park. Welcome to Primary Technology, the show about the tech news that matters. Big news this week, Apple is suing OpenAI, and OpenAI had a no good, very bad week. Also, their app launch, kind of a debacle. We're going to do a Siri AI check-in after having the beta on our main iPhones for a week. Apple Maps is not going to allow certain ads, and a ton more. This episode is brought to you by Decagon, Framer, NordLayer, and you, the members who support us directly. I'm one of your hosts, Steven Robles, and joining me from his bunker, Jason Aiton.

0:30How's it going, Jason? Good, and Molecule is sponsoring this episode. Not really, but I am using a Molecule that was given to me by the company years ago and is still running because I am in a bunker. Jason's in a bunker because the air quality index is insane where you are right now. Yeah, I think they say unhealthy is like 100, and it's 429 here. I sent Steven a photo of it, and they have a little meter, and it's basically crashing off of the meter. The needle has snapped off. It is just crazy. I sent him a picture, too. The sky is yellow right now.

1:01That's insane, and this is because of wildfires in Canada. This happens at least once a summer for the last several years where the Canadian wildfires interrupt a lot of things that are happening here. I see. And it's, yeah. There was supposed to be a cross-country race for our middle schooler who was at a camp this week. Yeah, they cannot run the cross-country race. The children will all suffocate. That's insane. Like, you just can't go outside. I can't use my office because it's a shed in the backyard right now. I went out there, and the air quality in my shed was in the 300s. I was like, yeah, that's not a good place to talk for two hours.

1:35So also, the quote that I opened this episode with, kind of another somber note. Yeah. You know the movie. I did. I mean, I knew it before. I would have known it anyway. Jurassic Park, Sam Neill, passed away. Sam Neill passed away. Very sad. He was in the 70s, you know, not super old. But anyway, I love the Jurassic Park movies. I feel like, I don't know anybody who doesn't. Especially the original ones. The original ones are great. I like Lost World. I think that's actually a good movie. But we can agree to disagree. No, I didn't say that. Okay, that's fine.

2:05But I think the Jurassic World ones have maybe extended the motif a little bit too far. They've gone a little off the rails. So the first one was okay, and then, you know. It's one of these things where, you know, if you have a TV show that's running for a long, long time, and suddenly you realize, like Lost, you suddenly realize, like, oh, we have written things into the story that we have to try to reconcile somehow, and Lost World feels, or Jurassic World feels a little bit like that. Yeah, that's fair enough. All right, we have some big news to get to.

2:36I want to do some five-star shout-outs. Had a bunch of five-star reviews. Thank you for that. MSB Schoffman from the USA says he loves the show and needed to know, what was the Instagram account that was reviewing Facebook Marketplace food? And so I will put this link in the show notes at your own risk, ladies and gentlemen. I don't know if you should do this. But he has, like, over 600,000 followers. His name is Gabriel Rivera. He's down here in Florida. Which, I guess, you know, the geolocation, maybe that's why I saw his stuff.

3:07But he gets food on Facebook Marketplace and meets these people in random places, like in the park, or picks it up from their house. And they're mostly in, like, the Tampa area. So these are, like, I don't know. I didn't know this was a thing. I'll put a link to his Instagram account if you want to try Facebook Marketplace. I will tell you, I've asked some people this week about this. Oh, really? And universally, we have agreed that tamales and brisket are the only thing that I would trust coming out of someone's Facebook Marketplace kitchen.

3:40Yeah. I mean, people, if they, like, if I could see the grill from the car. Yeah, if you're smoking brisket and I can see the smoke when I come up to your house and smell, then that's good. But other than that. You didn't see the preparation process, which still gets me a little, you know, a little concerned. I'll be honest. 45 seconds in the microwave, you're fine. Just nuke it. Yeah, it kills everything. After our last Movies on the Side episode, I've been microwaving things a little longer than I thought I needed to. And it turns out that's what you're supposed to do. I am, like, 55% through that.

4:10And I did not know that that was a movie. I had no clue that that was a movie that existed. Mercy? Never heard of it. I had no idea. You should enjoy it. I'll put a link to movies on the side below as well. So, in the show notes, this is my movie podcast with Nate. Barty Burns from North Dakota said, Meta Glass has made me look like a Memoji. I don't know. He didn't say it was a bad thing, but it just, okay. A Memoji. That's fine. I'll take it. I'll take it. I mean, it's the over-accentuated profile created by the rims. Okay, thank you. Side note, we're going to talk about it in the bonus episode probably, but I did send them back.

4:41I don't have them anymore. So, we'll get to that. Mike Wazowski, we're honored to have a Pixar character review the show. So, but from Tennessee. I don't know if Mike Wazowski is actually from Tennessee. Well, you know, he retired to the mountains of Nashville. Oh, that's right. That's right. He said, just a heads up, if there was no brisket, pulled pork, or cornbread at Caddy's get-together, it was a cookout and not a barbecue. So, apparently, brisket, pulled pork, or cornbread are required for it to be a barbecue. I think that's a philosophical statement, not an actual statement. Because the definition of the word barbecue just means meat cooked over a grill.

5:15I'm not getting involved. I'm not getting involved. You can email the other guy at primarytech.fm. Please tell him your barbecue requirements. It's fine. I'm on this iMac downstairs in my basement, and it still has a delete key. Email me all you want. Wow. And then, Luke Iyer from the UK, he said, great to see the other guy likes Maltesers. They were very good. They were very good. I also, side note, I watched Argentina versus England, the game yesterday, I might be becoming a sports ball fan, because that was a good game. I thought about replying to you when you posted something on threads about it, and I was like,

5:48do you even know what you're watching, Stephen? Could you name the sport? Actually, I had this thought. I was like, can you even name the sport? Because it's a trick question. It's football. I know that. Okay. Listen, I'm not a noob. You know what I mean? You actually are when it comes to sports. I actually are, but no, it is football, and I knew Messi was on Argentina, and I saw people posting on threads about the game, and I was like, this sounds like an intense game. Let me turn it on. It was like 70 minutes in, one to zero, England was up, and Jason, did you watch it?

6:20Did you watch the game? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Jason. I mean, that was an exciting last 30 minutes, and then my wife and I and my son, we were all starting to watch it, and I was telling my wife, I don't know how the clock works in football, because it's like, they say plus nine minutes, but it might be plus 20 minutes. Who knows? Nobody knows. Nobody knows when the game ends, and it's like suddenly an umpire just arbitrarily decides, you know what? I think that's the end. Isn't it? Is that how it works? Ish. Okay, that's what I thought. Thank you. Except, I want to just go on the record, and I know I'm going to make some people mad,

6:51but that's what I have to do. Nothing new there. I just, people get all sanctimonious about calling it football, which is totally fine, and I know the reason they do that is because Americans call something else football, and we call it soccer. I just want to be clear. Soccer was the name given to it by the students at Oxford in England, where it was invented. Absolutely. So, there's nothing wrong with calling it soccer. It's totally fine. It's just that the world calls it football because they like to pick on Americans. Totally fine. I understand.

7:22It's just, it was called association football, and they shortened it to soccer. Oh, okay. Fun fact. I did not know that, and I just have to say, watching the English in the stadium as Argentina scored that first goal, and then the second goal, it was heartbreaking. You just saw all these dudes dressed as medieval knights, and the drawn, it was very sad. They're going to have to fire the coach if they haven't already. Absolutely. I mean- No question. There's no, he lost in the game because he changed the, he changed their lineup.

7:54They started playing a 5-4-2 or 5-3-2, which they just lost control of the midfield. You score a goal in 55 minutes, you don't try to sit on a lead against Argentina, the number one team in the world, with Lionel Messi, the number one player in the world. Like, come on. It was, yeah, it was very exciting. We'll be watching the final on Sunday, I believe that is. But anyway, very excited about that. And I wanted to share a couple pin photos. The pin has, I think, made it for the second time to Sweden. This is Oscar in Gothenburg.

8:25Got our primary tech medieval knight on the polar bear. That's very exciting. I also wanted to say an email. Well, Ruan sent me an email about Pocket Cast. I've had a lot of people asking me what podcast app I've been using. And to be clear, I do use the Apple Podcasts app by default. That has been my podcast app for the last probably two years for a variety of reasons. I like the auto-generated chapters and transcripts, especially for shows that don't provide them themselves. The design of the Apple Podcasts app got me. The up-next queue is still terrible.

8:55And so Pocket Casts always tempts me back because that was my default for years. And Ruan sent me an email saying that Pocket Casts is going to be bringing HLS Video to the app, which we support that. So Apple Podcasts Video is kind of like a proprietary system. HLS Video is like the open video standard, which is an alternate enclosure in the RSS feed. We talked about this all when Apple launched the feature. But Pocket Casts is going to be supporting HLS Video soon, and they're going to be releasing an Apple TV app. And to your question about Overcast, you were saying your favorite feature in Overcast is

9:29that go-back feature because if you inadvertently scrub forward, you lose your place. Well, Pocket Casts has settings where you can toggle that off for the lock screen. So you can make it impossible to accidentally scrub forward and back from the lock screen now playing activity. And so, Ruan, I did not know about some of those features. I'm excited to try it. And I don't know. I have Pocket Casts right next to Podcasts. And I don't know. I might go back. We'll see. I got to figure out where that setting is because I'm definitely going to change it.

10:00There was a big update too with Liquid Glass as well. And if you were wondering, like for our show, the vast majority of listeners and viewers use Apple Podcasts. Second most is Overcast. And then Pocket Cast is kind of a distant third. But Pocket Cast is pretty great. You know, you do have to pay for some of the features now, which that is always like the hurdle for, you know, if you're going to pay for a podcast app. And Apple Podcasts is good. It is a very good app. But anyway, just wanted to share that.

10:31That's exciting. Pocket Casts updating for that kind of stuff. And then Scott sent us an email about the three iPads on a plane. We talked about the guy that you saw on a flight using three iPads. And I totally missed the opportunity to do a Snakes on a Plane sequel, iPads on a Plane. Yeah. But he was saying he has a daily carry of multiple devices as well. And he carries two iPads just in his bag, an iPad mini and then the iPad Pro with cellular. And I just want to say, I totally get the dual iPad lifestyle, especially if you're like mini and 13 inch and like the 13 inch is basically your work laptop type device.

11:06And the mini is like your reading device or second screen. And I think cellular connectivity is a big reason why someone might have one or two iPads plus a MacBook when they travel. So yeah, I get it. I was a dual iPad guy for a while, but I'm all in on 13 inch now. I like it. I mean, I have an iPad mini, but it just sits on my nightstand. I don't like take it with my iPad Pro with me. But yeah, I get it. Like, and I would have a hard time taking the mini instead of the Pro if I was going somewhere else because the 11 inches, like you can do everything. Right. Right. Exactly.

11:37But yeah, I just, there's three, like we were, we were at least one over the necessary requirement for iPads. Exactly. And we have a special announcement about next week's episode. Before we do that, I want to shout out Theo. He is one of our faithful listeners over in the UK. He also took the primary tech night pin to the Lego store, which is very on brand. Come on. That's pretty good. And he took it to the Apple store, I guess, in the same mall. So that's pretty fun. And I just want to say he's, he launched his own little solo podcast.

12:07I say little, it's not little. It's going to be huge. So go over there. I'm going to put a link to the tech stack podcast. He launched that, I think, partly inspired by maybe our show. And it's super fun. Listen to the episode. He does a great job kind of giving some background information on things like the Xbox, Microsoft story. And you can go follow his podcast on the show notes as well. That's great. It's super fun. This is the episode where you get all the podcasts. Go listen to movies on the side. Go listen to the tech stack. Go listen to creative effort. When's the next episode coming out? Uh, uh, hopefully the beginning of August.

12:37Sorry. I was trying to catch you off guard. I just got a text message that says, would you like help? And I realized it's actually like two hours old. And so, but I thought someone was asking me right now, would you like help? And I'm like, I'm good. Like to move the stuff into your basement, basically? I don't really know if I was like, am I too loud? Did I make a sound? Do I need help? I thought I was falling over. I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm good. No, hopefully the beginning of August. I have two of them in the can. But I'm not going to release them until I can release five. That's okay. Gotcha. Very cool. That's exciting. And, uh, last announcement before we get to our Siri AI check-in, uh, next week, Jason's

13:09going to be traveling as he is, he is, you're more and more of a traveler, Jason. You're just everywhere. Yes. However, next week we are taking three of our four children on a mission trip. Right. And we will be in nowhere, Kentucky and unable to do a podcast. It's like the first time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's going to, that's super fun. Glad you get to do it. And so we're going to have a special guest co-host and this is Lexi Savides. If you're not familiar, she's a great YouTuber. She was a long time at CNET and she's going to join the show and she's going to be my guest co-host next week.

13:40So, uh, yeah, that's exciting. We wanted to get her on the show for a long time. And, and when Jason was like, I gotta, I gotta, I'm out for one week, I was like, all right. The number of things though, last week that I realized I had put on my calendar for next week, cause I didn't have this trip on my calendar that I just had to go through and reschedule about 15 things. And one of them was the podcast. And I'm like, Hey, so Steven, I don't know what we should do. And you're like, eh, just go. BT dubs. Just go. Yeah. That'll be fun. So, uh, that'll be next week. All right. We've had the betas on our main iPhones for the last week.

14:12We installed it live on the show last week. I did a whole video on Siri AI and all the different use cases, but I've actually been finding more and more use cases in day-to-day life where it's been really useful. And so I'm curious one, how has your experience been with stability? Everybody was asking since the public beta is out, you know, should I install it on my main device? How is it? I tell people it's pretty solid. It's actually fixed my Apple watch battery issues. My ultra two was dying pretty fast on watchOS 26.

14:43And so I put the watchOS 27 beta three on my watch and it's been performing really well. So I've had a great experience with that. How has your experience been the last week? I think, yeah, it's been good. I don't know that I've necessarily used it more just cause it's on my main phone, but it's, I have found it to be consistent. And the indexing took infinity less time than it did on the first one. Like it took less than a day or maybe it was two days. I think I sent you a message like the next day and I was just really happy because it

15:14had an indicator. Now it's like you're 46% of the way done or something. They even changed what they're saying. It doesn't just say Siri indexing and progress. It's like we're creating your search index. 47%. Yeah, it gives you more information. Well, it makes it so that someone who doesn't really know what's going on has an understanding of like, what does this even mean? And so that if you, cause you can use it before it's done. Yeah. What they're trying to communicate to you is setting expectations like, Hey, we're not quite done. So if you ask me about that email from 14 years ago, I haven't looked at it yet.

15:45So that's what I've been trying to tell people. Cause some people have updated the beta and they're like, Siri AI doesn't do anything. And I'm like, you gotta wait, you gotta give it a minute because if you, as if you try to use all the personal context of the moment you update to the beta, there is no index for it to look at. Right. And so it might do world knowledge. Okay. Right at first, but give it a day, more likely two to three days and it'll get better. Um, I've found it to be, Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, you go ahead. I was really disappointed. I was trying to show off the new Siri to my daughter and we were having a conversation

16:16and this is the kind of conversation I have with my daughter. And so I asked Siri, I said, where is the most effective place to punch someone if you need to do so for self-defense?

16:27And, uh, the response was, I cannot fulfill this request. I'm programmed to be a helpful and harmless assistant. My safety guidelines strictly prohibit providing instructions or advice on how to physically harm another person, even in the context of self-defense. I said, okay, but hypothetically, wouldn't it be punching them in the throat? And it says, I, it just gave me the exact same answer. So I guess it's good that Siri's not going to be doing that. But then there was another time when my daughter was talking to me, relaying a story.

16:57And again, she has a very funny sense of humor. And she said something along the lines of like, uh, you know, there were several of them were out to eat or something. And she's like, something, something, something kidnapped, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, if I ever get kidnapped, this is what I'm going to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden Siri says, if you need assistance or if you are in trouble, please, I was like, stop listening. So it's very, uh, it's very helpful except for when you reach its limits, which I understand Apple's not going to let Siri teach you how to do Kung Fu.

17:28So no, and it's, it's, I appreciate how it's brevity. I find its responses, especially for world knowledge to be much shorter and to the point rather than claw Gemini and Chachipiti, which I'll be honest, I haven't really used Gemini in a month or so and my Chachipiti usage is decreasing. So it's basically just clawed in Siri AI, but I like Siri AI's responses. And also my video, there were a bunch of use cases that I did not realize it was going to be capable of. Like if you're, if you see a clip of a movie on social media, you can ask Siri, what movie

18:01is this or what TV show? And it will do it. You can even like this Instagram account that suggests YouTube videos, you know, there's no link to the video, but they took a screenshot of the video with the title and you can ask Siri AI, Hey, find this video on YouTube and it will do it. It will get you the link to that video from what was on screen. And it was right. It even, I could find restaurants based on the context clues of whatever's on screen. So I was really impressed with what it can do with on screen awareness. Like it is very clear, but it is also clear that the on screen awareness ends at the screen.

18:36So if you're on a Safari webpage and you ask it to do something, it may be able to see the full page content. It may not so far as like the one place, maybe, maybe not. But if you're an Instagram and you're trying to save a recipe, which is like one of my biggest shortcuts for people is like save this, you know, if a creator puts the ingredients and the steps to a recipe in the caption of the post with a shortcut, I can extract that information from the raw HTML and make it into an, into an Apple note. But with the on screen awareness, it was clear that when I asked Siri AI to like, Hey, take

19:08this recipe and make an Apple note, it would do it all. It would take the ingredients and the steps it could see, put it in Apple notes. So that's great. But it stopped wherever the screen stopped. So it got like steps one and two, but if steps three, four, and five were below the screen, like you couldn't see it visually, it couldn't pull it from Instagram. So it seems a little limited. And I had some people comment that Gemini can have access to the full screen, even though, you know, below the visual area, visible area. So we'll see, I'm going to do some more testing might compare with Gemini for that.

19:40But even things like I'm going to see the Odyssey tonight. I'm very excited, get to see it on opening night. And so when I bought the ticket yesterday, I, the ticket information was on screen, like from my purchase, and I just held the side button. And I said, add this to my calendar, got all the information, the location, the time, made the calendar event, boom, done. And that kind of onscreen awareness, just no matter what you're looking at, it can take action with it, adding, you know, it can add multiple events to your calendar. If you're looking at something like tour dates or your kid's football or soccer schedule,

20:12whichever you prefer, you can add all those things. And it works on all your Apple devices. Like, I think it's really good. And even moving events. I was like, hey, move this calendar event to this day and time. It can move those events. It just does it. And it's really good at it. So I'm very bullish on the Siri AI stuff. I've been using it more and more and finding out use cases of like, do I ask Claude this? I can say, I need to buy some new tires because I don't know if you know this, but tires on an electric car wear faster.

20:45Well, the car's heavier. And they put those stupid Michelin Sport S's that are like this much rubber. Well, I didn't realize until last Thursday, Thursday night after our last episode, I was heading to Lakeland and we were actually going to go see Moana live action. And when I got to the parking lot, the tire pressure gauge on my car was like ticking down visibly. It went like 38, 35, 32. And I was like, what is happening? Got out of the car and heard a hissing from my back tire.

21:16Which is not good. Not what you want to hear. Electric or not, that's bad. This is the first time this has happened to me. I have a 2013 Tesla Model S, the old car. I was like, oh, well, let me check for the spare. I didn't realize, Jason. No spares. No, it's just extra weight. Actually, you got to have room for the battery. So no spare tire. So I was like, okay, well, I guess let me see roadside assistance. State Farm wanted to tow the car. Tesla has a roadside assistance in the app. Have you used that? Did you use that when your tire like fell off or whatever?

21:47Oh, no, I don't have the roadside assistance for Tesla because that's a feature you have to pay for. Is it? Okay, because it's in the app. And it went so far as to hitting requests, but it was basically just going to tow me again. Yeah, they're just going to tow you. They'll put you on a flatbed and take you somewhere. I was like, I can make it to some place. And so I got my portable compressor, which is one of the best things you should have in the car is where you can plug it into the power thing and fill up your tire. I filled it up as high as it would go. And it was filling up, so it wasn't leaking so fast where it couldn't fill up.

22:18I was able to fill it up. And I went eight minutes away to a tire place, got a new tire. But now I have to buy three new tires because one, it blew out. It wasn't that I like went over a nail or something like it actually like blew. I don't know because it was like balding or whatever. So anyway, so I took a picture of the tire and I was like, I'm going to ask AI to just find me this tire. I'll just buy three. And I got a guy in the corner that changes amounts for super cheap. So I took a picture of it and I went to Claude and I was like, find me this model tire. And it was taking a long time to like find this model.

22:49I was like, man, maybe this is a hard tire to find. And after it gave me the answer, which seemed very long, I realized I'd switched to Fable for a request and didn't change back. It was actually building you a tire. So I used Fable and asked him where I could buy this tire. And it was, man, it was thinking hard about it because I'd also send like two pictures because I don't know anything about tires. So I took a picture of the tire and it was telling me things like interpreting the tire text and looking closely at this.

23:20I was like, why is it doing all this? It's because Fable. Fable was working on getting me a spare tire. Man, the number of tokens you burned. I probably burned half of the, yeah. So I had to remember to change that back because I was, I used it to help me. This is a side note. One of the most requested shortcuts I have is a shortcut that opens news articles in Apple News. So if I see Jason's link.com article, run a shortcut, open that in Apple News. And if you, if Apple News is in the share sheet, that's the best way to do it. And that works, but there's no URL scheme that seems to work consistently because some

23:54people use RSS reader apps and the news app doesn't show up in the share. For some of those apps like net newswire. And so I asked Fable to help me with this. Hasn't gotten there yet. We're, we've been going back and forth for days, but that's why I was using Fable. I was like, I'm going to put the most powerful brain on this to see, can I, can this figure it out? But anyway, it has not figured it out yet. So that's been Syria. It's been good experience. If you want to jump on the public beta, I feel like if any year you thought about jumping on a beta, this is probably the year to do it. I think it's the most stable. Yeah.

24:25I will just warn people because I believe this is still true. I don't have a device. I should, I'm not going to upgrade one of my kids to 27 just to check this, but you can upgrade, but you're not going to get Siri AI immediately. You're going to be on the wait list, which as we, if you remember from when you first could take you two or three weeks to get off that wait list. So just keep that in mind that you're going to be putting a beta on your phone and you are main, you may not get the immediate satisfaction of being able to use Siri AI.

24:58That is true. There are a bunch of other features you'll get to use. Sure. I mean, the performance, transparency slider, transparency slider, you can do that stuff. Yeah. You know, you can do all that. All right. We need to get to the open AI stuff, but before we do, I need to, I want to talk about Apple maps because Apple had announced earlier this year that ads were coming to Apple maps, meaning that businesses could buy sponsored things, suggested locations in Apple maps.

25:28We already talked about that and how we feel about it, but Apple is going to ban home services from buying ads. So this is things like electricians, plumbers, repair guys, or ladies, they will not be able to buy Apple maps ads, which I found interesting. I think in Google maps, that kind of stuff is allowed. Like I had, I've recently searched for repair, like air conditioner repair guys or whatever. And I think I've saw sponsored ads in Google maps for those kinds of businesses, but Apple

26:00is going to ban them. I've, I imagine it's because those kinds of services related industries, if there is an ad for a plumber and that plumber screws up somebody's house, that person is going to be mad at Apple because Apple surfaced that person because they bought an ad, you know, regardless of their quality or rating, you know what I mean? How other people's experience, it was just an ad. And if it's not super clear there was an ad, people are going to be upset. So maybe that's why they did it. But I think it's interesting that they are picking and choosing what they're going to

26:34allow to be ads. Well, I believe that the local service ads is actually Google's biggest ad category. Like I think that's where they make most of the money. I also think that philosophically, it kind of makes sense because if you open a map and you're looking for something, like I wouldn't look on the maps app if I needed a locksmith, right? Because the map is like, give me directions to go to the place, not find me provider who will come to my house. Right? Like you, this almost sounds like ridiculous, but it's like, it would make more sense to

27:08find a locksmith on Uber or DoorDash than it would on the Google Maps app. So there's part of it where I think philosophically, maybe Apple's trying to prevent some confusion and like, just make it clear that like, no, that the things that, well, first of all, I don't think they should be doing ads, but the things you can pay for an ad for is I have a new bakery. I want everyone to know. So if people are searching for donuts, they find my place. Right? So I don't know. I think there's a philosophical piece of it there, but they are, I mean, the reason it's a big deal is they are basically saying no to what is the biggest category of revenue

27:40for ads and in this tech crunch article, there are screenshots of what ads will look like. This is from Apple, but you could see the image here. And when you do not even a search, if you just like slide up the search, uh, drawer or whatever, there will be suggested places possibly there before you even search. And the ad will be highlighted in blue with a little blue tag that says ad. And if you search for a place like restaurants, there might be that highlighted blue first result. I said, I'm still not crazy about this.

28:10I don't, uh, it's kind of me. I have decided, Steven, I understand advertising has made a lot of things possible, including like my job and your job. I get it. Sure. However, it is such a terrible experience. The number of times recently in, uh, so I needed a, I needed a disc utility because I had an SD card that I, that had like 45 raw files that were just missing. So I'm like, but I'm like, well, before I give up and reformat this card and never use

28:41it again, let me see if there's a, so there was a thing called disc drill, which is an app that you can mount a SD card and it, it'll find everything. It did a great, it did exactly what I needed to do, but I had done some research. This was when I was in England. I'd asked actually a couple of the other photographers, like what are they? And everyone recommended the same thing. The problem is you search for disc drill and you get a lot of things where the page header says disc drill, but that is not what they are. It is just a search game.

29:12You get all this stuff and even you get URLs that are variations of disc drill from all these competitors. And then I actually downloaded like three of them before I realized this is not, these are not the apps that I'm supposed to. It's like, so I don't like this idea where if someone is searching literally for notion or Dropbox or something, you get all of the other things first. Like what do you, do you think that that's like the way we should be living our life? No, but that's also how the app store functions, which we've talked about. Like, which I think is terrible.

29:43Yeah. It's not, it's not good. And like Apple could do things to, I think it's keyword sniping is the phrase. Like Apple should be able to not allow that. First, first of all, I just went to the app store cause I was about to do a search to see what kind of results come up. And before I even search anything, Google Gemini is at the top of suggested as an ad, which is like, okay, okay. Well, if you, and if you search, yes, it's kind of gross. And if you search for overcast, this is always the titular example I think of, there is another

30:17podcast player that is obviously sniping that keyword because if you like the word overcast is not anywhere in the title of the app or anything, there's an ad first, then overcast is there in this tiny little line. And then the second ad starts, I mean, I would say three quarters or more of this screen on my iPhone is ads for apps that are not overcast. Yeah. And neither of them should be there because the user is clearly searching for overcast. Correct. Correct.

30:47Now, if I search, go ahead, go ahead. Well, Apple has said in their maps that if you, it's so weird because if you're through like the small Apple business and you buy your maps, you can't do that. However, it will be available to advertisers who are using the Apple ads platform, which is a completely separate thing. And we'll be also, so like they're actually disadvantaging like your friend who owns a restaurant or whatever, because they can, they won't be able to, but like Denny's can just buy their

31:17name and just show their ad instead. And I hate to do this to you, Jason. Have you searched your app in the app store? I mean, I don't have really great SEO yet. Well, I searched for contextually and there, it is the same situation as overcast. Two other ads take up three quarters or more of this screen. Neither of them are your app. Your app is here in that small sliver like overcast. The first one is called context, personal data kit. Never heard of that. 34 reviews, not a huge app.

31:49And then gleam social intelligence is the other app. Well, in mine, I get the first thing I get is Grammarly. Wow. That's definitely not a notes app at all. The second one I get is something called summary AI note taker, which I don't know what that is either, but I am actually happy because there was actually quite a long time that if you search for my app, it just keeps going for a very long time. Well, let me say the last thing before we take a quick break. I searched for my app because my app is still in the app store and it is a,

32:20it's not, it's got nine reviews. Okay. It's almost a five star app. It's my coffee finder. I searched for beard FM coffee, which is a pretty specific search term. I feel like to put in the app store, the first result, it's the same situation. There's two big ads. I said, ADS big ads. One of the top, one of the top is merge cooking, which is some in-app purchase game scam. And then after my app is hungry root, healthy groceries.

32:51What is happening? What is happening with these ads? Like that, that is a, that is a poor user. And that's the question. If ads make the user experience significantly worse, that's a problem and probably should be re-examined on how these ads are placed, how keywords can be, you know, focused and all of that. So I've still never seen an ad in Apple maps when I search and it's supposedly not rolled out just yet. Apple said it was coming this summer and Apple, you know, whenever it says a season, it's

33:22always like, it might be the last day of that season. So it might be September 20th, you know, the first time you see an ad in Apple maps, but they are coming and now it might come sooner rather than later. I did just notice that Chris Lawley's app basically uses my UI. Well, but it's, that's probably not him. It's probably because I was, I was making an app and then a good friend of the show started making a similar app and he was much farther along. And so I was like, well, you just, just make the app. And the UI was very similar.

33:55And I think there is a wireframe that these AIs are using to create stuff. And I've seen more and more, I've seen more and more posts on social media where people will call out website elements where they're like, that's a chat GPT design stick kind of thing. And so I don't think anything was purposeful. No, no, no. I didn't mean that in that way at all. I was like, oh, look at that. But yeah, I spent a lot of time actually going through and being very specific about the interface, but yeah, I'm not mad about it.

34:26It's totally fine. But here's the thing though, too. I imagine as you are very specific about your user interface and tweaking it. Yeah. I just taught Claude. This is what you should do for the next guy. You taught Claude. You're like, that is training data. Yeah, that's true. To do it. And you're welcome, Chris. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, I know. But that's also like the one, the app that I was trying to make when our friend sent me their app, like a test flight, a lot of the elements were very similar and he never saw my app. My app never was on the app store, but I was using Claude to make it.

34:59And so I imagine whatever follow-ups and requests that I was giving Claude to design my app, like I'm sure that fed into someone else who was, you know, requested a very similar use case. It's all training data. Yeah, that's true. I didn't mean for this to be a super deep topic, but I do think as the question of what tasks and jobs are safe or not safe with the rise of AI type tools, this is now looking like the AI appification or whatever you want to say, like those apps that are made with

35:35AI, if you don't have that creative app skill set that maybe you can like hand design something that's very different. A lot of the apps might start looking similar and have similar elements, even though it's very different people making it. They might be starting like never see other apps as inspiration. Just the fact that all of this training data is going back up into one place, namely Claude or whatever, it's going to come back out when someone else wants to make an app. And so there's going to be the word I've been looking for homogenization of design and elements

36:10from apps and websites. And, you know, we'll see. We'll see what happens over the next few years. Sure. But I don't know. I've also been seeing a lot on social media of people just resisting AI. Oh, and that was the example I wanted to use in the Siri AI section. One thing I did not put in my video and I didn't know was possible is that Siri AI can apparently identify AI generated imagery. Oh, yeah. Because I took this screenshot of an Amazon post months ago and it was such a clear AI generated

36:46image in the Amazon post. And so I'm going to, this is just an image on my phone. I'm going to ask Siri AI, is this an AI generated image? And we did this in the pre-show, but let's try it again now and see what it does.

37:00Yes, this appears to be an AI generated image. There are several visual inconsistencies common in AI generation, such as the man's hands blending unnaturally into the plush toy he is holding and the blurred, nonsensical shapes of the background elements and machinery. So there you go. I'm going to be making that Instagram reel later today showing that Siri AI can identify AI generated imagery as long as it's really bad. And now, no, HomePod, I'm not talking to you. You don't have AI. Get out of here, HomePod. Here's a station just for you. No. Oh, my goodness.

37:31What is happening?

37:35My HomePod is rebelling. The machines are rising up. The machines are rising up. It heard it be called nonsensical. Blurred, nonsensical machines. Thankfully, the HomePods don't have legs yet. The HomePods don't have legs yet. All right. We need to talk about OpenAI. They had a series of unfortunate events. Some self-inflicted. Well, maybe all self-inflicted. But anyway, we're going to get to that. Before we do, I want to thank our friends. I have a new sponsor today. This is exciting. Decagon. Decagon is the first sponsor today. And listen, as your company grows, you have to do customer support.

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42:53Well, I would argue that it started with them punching their users in the face. Okay. Well, let's start there. This was Thursday. So here's the timeline. Thursday, OpenAI screwed up their app. Friday, we learned that OpenAI stole trade secrets. And then Tuesday, OpenAI, it was, well, Mark Gurman at Bloomberg said they're going to release a HomePod. That's their big AI hardware, which is like whatever. Okay. But first, let's start with the app. And Jason wrote a wonderful piece on link.com.

43:24We'll link the Apple News link in the show notes. But tell me, because I'm holding out. I've heard all the uproar about the app. I'm still on the old app. I didn't have Codex on my Mac Studio, so I'm not installing it. I got the splash screen when I opened the ChatGPT app, and it was like, there's a new ChatGPT experience. Do you want it? And I quietly X'd out of that splash screen and just continued using my ChatGPT classic app. So tell me, what's the deal? Yeah. Okay. So essentially, what they did is they took the Codex app, which a lot of people did not have.

43:55A lot of people did have. And it's a genuinely great – Codex is genuinely a great app. Like just – Tool, yeah. Codex, yeah, it's a tool. Thank you. So they introduced a new thing called ChatGPT Work, which sounds like Google for Work or Microsoft Outlook or something, right? ChatGPT Work sounds like ChatGPT you use at work. They're trying to sound real corporate-y. But that is not what ChatGPT Work is. ChatGPT Work is Cloud Co-Work, but ChatGPT, right?

44:25Right. I mean, that's what it is. ChatGPT. They didn't even come up with an original name. It's just – what if we don't put the co in front of it? We just call it the same thing? And they combined those two things into the Codex app, and they renamed the whole thing ChatGPT. Super not confusing at all, right? So what that meant is if you had the Codex app and you updated it, it became ChatGPT. And then if you had the ChatGPT app, it became ChatGPT Classic and probably was in your trash. So if you wanted to keep the Classic app – actually, on my computer, it just went to the trash called ChatGPT.

44:59So I had to drag it out and rename it ChatGPT Classic so I could keep it. You had to rename the app file? Well, just whatever the name is, yeah. I mean, you just can call it anything you want. Because if I download Codex today, it's called ChatGPT? Yes. And then it moves the other one to the trash. So it's like, don't use the Chat app, please. And there's a screenshot in my article. But there is still technically Chat. It is just like one of the options over on the sides and it opens a floating window. And then if you want your previous history of Chats, you have to toggle over to that.

45:32And it's like this weird, weird, weird UI. Also, they put a browser. They killed Atlas and put the browser in the Codex app. It's like all of it is insane, if you ask me. Like, and the thing that ChatGPT, or excuse me, that OpenAI is trying to say is, we don't really want people using ChatGPT. We want them using these things that we make money on, which is ChatGPT work and Codex. And, but I feel like the biggest problem is, it's such a terrible experience.

46:05And granted, if you don't have the Codex app, you could just keep, like you, just keep ChatGPT. I'd never update. I mean, that's exactly what I'm doing. Except, how long do you think ChatGPT Classic is going to stick around? Three months max. Okay, maybe. I would have maybe said like six months. But yeah, like I don't think that it's very long for this world. And what they're basically telling you is that free service and app that a billion people started using, that is not the future. And the reason it's not the future is because Cloud exists and Cloud has the thing called Cowork and whatever.

46:38And it's like, we have to go and do that thing as well. And also, we'll make a HomePod.

46:43Yeah, we'll get to that last part. So, I just saw everywhere online. I mean, Gruber was ticked. Ben Thompson's like, not a good experience. But just people anecdotally on social media were like, where did my chats go? Because if you updated to the Codex app or downloaded it, that chat history, like you're saying, apparently is very important to people. And they couldn't find it easily. And that was unfortunate. But also, like you're saying, this is clearly OpenAI needing to slightly pivot and gear itself toward that enterprise.

47:17Otherwise, this is a work tool for businesses. And hopefully, they pay money and clear that they're doing this before they IPO. So, hopefully, all this can be behind them. And then they will be positioned as like the enterprise tool. It also feels like, you tell me, it feels like Claude is winning that race. And it's not close right now. I think that's actually 100% true, which is the reason why OpenAI is responding this way. OpenAI has been, ChatGPT has been a consumer brand.

47:49Claude has always been a nerd and then enterprise brand, right? And what ChatGPT, what OpenAI has realized is that consumers is not very profitable because most people are just using the free version of ChatGPT in a browser or in an app or whatever. And they lose money every time. Like literally, if the service is free, but it costs them money, they lose money every time. And even the $20 a month plan, I'm pretty sure they're losing a bunch of money on people. Because $20 a month was literally just a number somebody made up. And they're like, how much do we think?

48:2020 bucks. Okay, let's try that. And they did it. And so, that's why you always get these notifications that are like, hey, we've extended access to Fable for three more days until we figure out how much usage this is going to be or whatever. Like they just don't have a clue. And so, I think, yeah, I feel like the reason that the chat history is so important to people is that's what people were using it for. The majority of people were consumers using a free version or a $20 a month version. And they were using it to do chat stuff. And yes, it is true that that is not the most useful way to use any of these tools.

48:52By far, Codex, Cloud Code, Co-Work, ChatGPT are phenomenal. And ChatGPT's version of it is actually incredible. The vast majority of people don't care. And so, that's why in this case, what opening I did, in my opinion, they did two things very wrong. One, the app is just bad. It's just a bad design. It is a garbage whatever, you know, non-native app. It's like, because they had a native app and they made this thing and it's weird.

49:25The Atlas browser thing is like in a sidebar that pulls up over. Like, it's just so, it's terrible. And it's a brand marketing user experience problem, which is like we're telling people and creating confusion and creating friction because we're trying to force them into a certain mode of using this that people just, that's not what they ask for. I also feel that we talked about, I think last week, I can't remember, but I think Siri AI, once that is in people's hands this September, like for most people, there is going to be a shift.

50:03And people will start to use it for their casual knowledge, general request stuff, because one, it'll be quote unquote free. They won't have to go to a separate app to do it. And it will have that personal context. And it's just, it'll be built in. And I wonder, tell me if you think this might be true, but maybe this is also open AI responding to that coming shift where on the iPhone, like a lot of people use the ChatGPT app right now on their iPhone.

50:33And on their iPad, I see like real world people doing it. I think when Siri AI is out there and people understand they can just ask it and the Siri AI app is going to be just popped up on their device and they're going to be like, oh, I can just go here and do it. I don't know. I feel like that's going to be a shift too. And maybe open AI is trying to make some changes to shift that part of their business too. Is that maybe?