#875: The Random Show — Tim and Kevin Talk Retreats, Mortality, AI Predictions, Supplements, Rock Climbing at (Almost) 50, and Not Waiting for “Someday”

0:00At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would have seemed an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show.

0:24Kev Kev. Tim Tim. Good to see you, man. Good to see you. Let's figure out which one there we go. Cheers. Cheers. You know, I know the cool kids are down on alcohol, but every once in a while, I think there's a place for it. There's a time and place. This is the time. I think this is the time and the place, and I think paying a tax for it the next day is a feature, not a bug. Are you getting taxed harder on alcohol? Of course, yeah. Is it getting worse? Every old bastard. Yeah, I know. That's gender neutral. Gets taxed as you can process ethanol less and less well over time.

0:57But I'm cool with it. I don't have that much, but today has been hectic. Yeah. You know, take a little edge off. And people may not like the sign of that. It's a little antiquated, maybe, for all the cool ketamine kids. No offense. Yeah. But don't put that shit on me. I try it one time, and I get the freaking ambassador. You fuck a goat once, and then they call me the goat fucker. You can't get around it. I still stand by that experience.

1:28When you're doing it in a supervised setting by a medical professional. Oh, here we go. No, I'm telling you, you've done it. Of course I have. Okay, so there we go. Well, yeah, because I wanted to be able to speak. I saw you at a party one time, and you were just like, whoa. That's not true. That's not true. Still have all my nostrils intact. No ketamine cramps, you know. I don't even know what that is. Is that a thing? That's when you use too much. Okay. Way, way, way, way too much. Oh, yeah. I heard it's bad on the bladder. Yeah, your bladder can get a little grumpy, or a lot grumpy, as the case might be.

1:59Yeah, I'm good. You know, I'm good. Kevin, random show number 3,479. Yeah. You know what's crazy, dude, is I looked up a random show the other day, and you had a bit of hair, like, way back in the day. Way back, yeah. We were babies. I know. So much shit has happened. I know. The only constant, I think, is, like, maybe, like, Toaster, who's barely alive. Toaster, I know. Seriously. Toaster was a tiny, tiny little pup who was chewing through the XLR cables on your couch

2:34in San Francisco way, way, way back in the day. Toaster's 15, and I'll tell a quick little story. A week ago, I get this call. Daria calls me, and she's like, you got to get over to the house. Like, Toaster's shaking violently. And he's 15. And he's, like, running into walls and shit. Like, you know, he's getting up there. And his legs are collapsing, so he can't stand up. And he couldn't stand up. And he's shaking violently. And I'm, like, just flying over there. I throw him in my car. He's on my lap. Driving to get to this emergency vet as fast as possible.

3:08And he just sprays shit all over me. Like, literally. I heard it, like, I felt his stomach be, like, grr, grr, grr, grr, grr, grr. Here we go. And, like, 10 seconds later, I'm not even talking, like, oh, like, oh, he had a little shit. Like, no, no, no, no. Like, shotgun against the car door. Like, the whole thing. And it's all down my pants. Poor Toasty. I know. But you know what's funny, dude? It's, like, I rushed him in. And long story short, he's okay now. What was it? He had gone into the vet the day prior. And he was so nervous that he stood for, he had to be there for, like, a multi-hour blood draw.

3:43Because he was having some other issues. And he stood for, like, six hours straight. That's too long for an old dog. And, dude, he can only stand for, like, 10 minutes. Like, max. And so he had just overtaxed himself and got, like, there's a syndrome that they can get when they're, like, super stressed out. Sure. So little Molly's at it. Or big Molly. She's on the floor right here. She's sleeping. Molly's 12. It's crazy. But long story short, he's okay. But I thought to myself, it's so weird. Because when I walked in there, and there was, like, shit. And, like, literally, I'm in tears.

4:13Because I think I'm about to have to put down my dog. Yeah. Of course. And I just thought, it's okay. I'll do this any day for this dude. Yeah. Like, when you care about your animals that much, none of that matters. Yeah. Like, you would do anything for them. You know? For sure. And it's just, like, just that love. It's so crazy how much you love these little beasts. Like, it's insane, dude. Yeah. It's like a kid. It's like a kid. Yeah. It's wild to think about if you really sit down and think about it. Some of these super common daily experiences.

4:46Like, communing with a dog. Or pointing and having a dog recognize that you're pointing, for instance. That's really rare in the animal kingdom. That recognition of pointing. Mm-hmm. As just one example. But how unusual it is that we have this. And, yes, we have cats. I grew up with four cats and two dogs. I get it. But in particular dogs, as, like, companions, co-hunters, et cetera, the fact that we have evolved, co-evolved in a sense, and sort of co-domesticated also, right?

5:19It's not necessarily one way. Read The Botany of Desire by Michael Pollan for more on that. It is incredible. Yeah. Right? The fact that we have, like, we're totally calm having this 60-plus pound beast with giant fangs on the floor is nuts. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you've seen those Instagram posts where it's, like, where I was and where I am now today. And, like, they show, like, the wild, like, wolf, like, out in the countryside, like, eating a rabbit. And then they show, like, a poodle in a tutu outfit and shit, like, all, like, died up. Yeah. The meme is, I'm going to go grab some scraps from those weird monkeys.

5:52What's the worst that could happen? And then it's, like, 10,000 years later, right? Exactly. You're a chihuahua with a bonnet on. What else is going on, Kevin? I got a couple things on my list, but we got... There's a lot to talk about. There's a lot to talk about. First, I'll say that lately life has been lifing me. It's been doing all the things. We lost a dear colleague, O'Malek. Oh, man. Very sad. Very notorious, like, amazing early tech, just creative author. Brilliant writer. Brilliant thinker.

6:23Very sweet guy. The nicest. The nicest. And, you know, we lost him within the last week. Yeah. He passed away, so that was tough. That was really tough. I found out when I was at a retreat. I went to a five-day silent meditation retreat, which is great, but bummer to hear that. But, I mean, this is the thing that I realized the other day. I was thinking about, you know, Toaster and O'M and other stuff I have going on and my mom getting older and falling and all these things. And in some sense, it's unavoidable, number one. And number two, I kind of wouldn't have it any other way.

6:56It's what makes life interesting. When O'M passed. You mean death? Well, just everything. The chaos of it all. If you can just take a step back and be like, well, or I could just be sitting there living a really boring life and nothing could be happening. Like, when O'M passed, what I felt was a severe sense of loss and sorrow and sadness. But I realized that that gap is just love at the end of the day. Because I wouldn't have it unless I loved this man so much. Like, I cared for this person so much.

7:28How lucky am I to have crossed paths with this person to get to know them? And you were tied in through True Ventures, obviously, and prior to that. Yeah. But like anyone in general that you lose, that you love. You know? I mean, when I lost my dad, like, that is just a gaping hole of love manifested through sorrow and sadness. And once you realize that, it's like, wow, I had this great father that did all these amazing things with me. And you can kind of convert that or just be okay with it. Not that you need to change that feeling. Right.

7:59Recognize that it's a consequence of the love that you had. The consequence of the love, the deep love. Yeah. You know, I heard about his passing and I want to give credit where credit is due for a few things. Matt Mullenweg, mutual friend. He was incredibly close to him. And I'm really grateful to Matt for a few things. One, I mean, many things. I could give a long list, but there are a few. One is he organized a trip to Antarctica. I've never been to Antarctica or hadn't. And on that trip were just a handful of people, including,

8:31Ohm. So I got to spend quality time. I mean, trust me, when you're in Antarctica, you are indoors most of the time. Yeah. What that means is you're either trying to sleep in your tent, but it's going to be during the summer. So it's like a spotlight in your face, 24 hours a day. Or you're in one of these other structures where you're probably like having wine and junk food. Let's be honest. And there's a lot of talking. So we got to hang out. And Ohm was also an avid photographer. And so we got to go to this nearby Empire Penguin colony, which was a once-in-a-lifetime

9:02experience. And you just sit and talk. And if there were going to be any small talk, which there wasn't going to be with Ohm or me, really, for that matter, it all falls away after the first half a day. Right. And then everybody's kind of like psychologically naked. So I really want to thank Matt for that opportunity to bond with Ohm. And I'd spent a lot of time with him, but it was always in these little bits and pieces. You know, not for several days straight where you're basically like locked in together.

9:33And separately, Matt introduced me to this short blog post by someone who typically writes very long blog posts, Tim Urban, called The Tail End. I don't know if I ever sent this to you. People should know by way but why. Yeah, way but why. Yeah. Fantastic blog. And The Tail End makes the point, among many others, that by the time you, I think it's graduate from high school. So let's assume you're headed off to college away from your parents. You've spent something like 90, 95% of the total hours you will ever spend with your parents

10:07by the time you graduate from high school. And when you start to visualize that, and Tim Urban's really good at laying it out visually, it can provoke some really profound changes for me. I mean, just reading that short blog post sent to me by Matt ended up leading to taking my family on these family trips as like awkward and uncomfortable that was at points because my family doesn't really emote much. So you stick us together in the way that I was together with the home and it can be super uncomfortable. But making the effort, right?

10:39At least feeling like, look, this runway is not infinite. Yeah. And it's like, let me just make the effort. And I'm glad I did because we got to a point where it's like with my dad's mobility is really compromised and needs a wheelchair now for a lot. I just saw him a few days ago and it was great to see him, dude. Yeah. It was so great to see him. He's so kind. Yeah, he is. He's like, Kevin, like so happy. Yeah. And you know, he has a little cane and it was just like so sweet to see him, man. I hadn't seen him for like years. Long time. It had been like seven years or something like that? Yeah, something like that.

11:09And I'm glad I took those trips because before you know it, you can't do it anymore. And it makes me think of, you mentioned meditation, this really good short, I'll call it a meditation for simplicity, but it's like an audio book chapter by Sam Harris called The Last Time. I think it's called The Last Time. And he reflects on these various experiences that at the time you don't recognize are the last time for something, right? So he went skiing, he went skiing, he went skiing, and there was a time when he stopped,

11:42but he didn't realize that that was going to be the last time. And you just fucking don't know. Do you ever try and like, I think about this, dude, and then I try and do it one more time. Yeah, that's how I always end up injured. Dude, I went to the bouncy house with my kids and like, I'm 49, you know? And I was like, we'll have to fucking do a flip right now. And like, literally people were like, don't do it. Don't like, like call me off, you know? And I did it and I stuck it and it felt good. You're good on a trampoline. Might be my last time. You might be your last time.

12:13You are good on a trampoline. This is so weird, man. Dude, I kid you not, I had a dream last night of the two of us going to House of Air at Chrissy Field in San Francisco and you were doing like front flips off your knees. I can do that. You dropped your hat and then you like kicked the trampoline to bounce it back up to your head. And I was like, what? Wait, wait, wait, wait. So you know I sent you that video of me dropping my hat and kicking it back in my head. I've seen you do it live too. Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, what? I literally had that in my dreams last night. That's wild.

12:44And I have the asses chaps on like I normally do when you're here. Yeah. Yeah. The asses chaps on, which like depending on your angle can be kind of awkward because you like doing the straddle flip. You like doing the straddle flip. So it's a little awkward. I've heard about these dreams before. I always text them to Kevin. I'm like, I was thinking of you last night. The chaps are back. The chaps.

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14:45Wow, that's the perfect audio. Well, the retreat was fantastic. I spent five days going really deep on my koan, doing a lot of work on it. Moo. Moo. Moo, which you can listen to Henry Shookman on your podcast if people are interested about what Zen is all about, like real, true, traditional Zen with koans. And you've probably heard the sound of one hand clapping that actually is a one of 500 plus koans. Yeah, it was fantastic. I had a couple little micro insights, which was good. And I was kind of rushed through to the Zen master to explain them and try and get some

15:18clarity on them, which is great. How do you know that you're having a micro insight? So it's not like my balls are chafing in this position. It's something else. Yes. It's not that. But close. I essentially was sitting and, you know, Henry, one of the Zen masters that you've had on the show, a dear friend of ours, was there. And then his Roshi from Japan was there. So it was very special. And then it comes over two years. What's his name? Yamada Roshi. Yamada Roshi, yeah. So basically I was kind of, old Henry aside, you're not supposed to, he's not talking, but

15:50I was like, he's like, yeah, how's it going? Like this and that. And I was like, well, I had this thing happen. Like, what do you think about this? And he's like, you got to come with me right now. Like, well, not come with me, but he like got me right in front. There's a line to see the Roshi to go have your private interview where you go and like check your practice with them. So it's behind closed doors. You go in, you sit down with the Roshi, you typically get between two and 10 minutes to sit down and talk about your progress on your practice. And you do that like once every day and a half when you're out there.

16:20And this was. That's cool. Enough to where Henry was like, you should go talk to him right away. Skip the line. TSA pre-check. Like go through the pre-check. And it was beautiful. It was a micro little thing. I can share it if you're curious. Yeah, of course I'm curious. Yeah, so there was this sense I'm sitting there. I get bored of hearing myself talk. That's why I'm here. Talk to you. So I'm sitting here staring against the wall because in Zen you stare against the wall with your eyes open. You're staring about three quarters down, kind of just glancing on. I'm working on my koan. And for people that don't know how you do that is essentially on the out breath, you

16:50just like slowly internally say your koan. It's almost like a mantra in some sense, but a little bit more involved. Yeah, it's like a question you're kind of asking yourself slowly that doesn't make sense and eventually it pops. But what happened is I had about two seconds of this sense that there was, and this is going to be hard to explain because it's not from the world of thought, which is already hard to explain. It's like a sneeze in the perineum. No.

17:21No. All right. I had it close. I had a sense of nothing lacking. That sounds nice. Nothing needed to be added and nothing even possibly could be added and nothing possibly could be taken away because everything at that moment was full in the way that it should be. But what was interesting about it is it wasn't an emotion. It was just like a steady state of being. So it wasn't like, oh, I feel free right now.

17:52No, none of that. It was just like, oh, everything is here, perfectly present. And it was just wild. It was wild in what sense? In the, in the felt sense of that experience or realization? Wild in the sense that wild in the, I just drank too much tequila after not having much tequila. I haven't had any tequila. But in the sense that we oftentimes so often like go outside or inside into our brain to

18:27try and find something, figure something out, an emotional state that's either bothering you or feels good or feels bad or something else. And then just to know that everything, and I don't mean like objects, like everything was one unit of nothing lacking. And it was just a micro sense of kind of like, oh, there's actually nothing to do because everything's already here. They talk about this in Zen a bit where you already have everything that you need.

18:58So it's just, they called the removal of the veil. It's an expansive awareness that you get from a deep continued practice over years and decades, but it was already there all along. Can I give a shameless plug? Yeah, let's hear it. All right. So you and I are both involved with The Way, which is this guided single path meditation app, which is guided by Henry Shukman, who you mentioned. And it's the progressive development of skills on a single path, which I really like, as opposed

19:34to just what is the meditation du jour with no coherence. And a few of my favorite meditations, I have a lot of different sessions bookmarked, and I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And by the way, for people who are like, oh, these guys are just shilling their bags. I do think it can be a good business, but this is sort of a ideologically philosophical investment of time and money. It's like the reason we invested in the dog aging study with rapamycin. Yeah, exactly.

20:04University of Washington, it's like, this needs to exist. It needs to exist. It's good for the world. Let's try it. So sure, we've got some chips on the table, but this is mostly because we believe in it. And a few of my favorites, if people ever try it, Whole Earth is Medicine is one. That's a good one. Another one is This Too Is Me, which makes me think about what you're saying. So This Too Is Me is a meditation led by Henry, which this is going to sound maybe esoteric,

20:36but it's not. When you recognize that all of the things you experience are mediated by your mind, right? And therefore, like when you hear something, when you feel something, when you're interrupted by something, et cetera, et cetera, anything you can possibly imagine experiencing is also you because ultimately it is entirely mediated by your mind. Let's just use that instead of brain. And it's incredibly, at least for me, and I'm not comparing it to your experience because

21:09I think it's probably characteristically different, is incredibly relaxing to let go, even just for a moment. Because my brain is like the ultimate dog chasing a squirrel kind of brain, right? Like I'm always looking for something to fix, something to improve, what I need to do, what is happening next week. And meditation is... You are the squirrel. I am the squirrel. You're right. It can be excruciatingly painful. Yeah. Like meditation can be super hard. That's a very common thing.

21:39People are like, I can't do this. But when Henry gives you permission to include all of that as you, I know this might sound very bizarre. It allows you to kind of drop this burden that you didn't realize you were carrying. So in any case, you don't have to do a week-long meditation retreat. If you're just doing 10 minutes twice a day, and I do think there's some alchemy to twice a day, I don't know why exactly. I have some theories around vagus nerve stimulation and stuff, but you get a lot out of it.

22:11In any case, I didn't mean to interrupt your story. No, I think there's two things that I love that Henry says quite often when he starts some of these meditations, which is take everything that you came in the door with, like all of the thoughts, worries, emotions, things, and leave it at the door just for now. You can come back to it in 20 minutes. But just for now, the permission to set those things down for yourself just for now is such a beautiful thing. And then the little instructions where he's like, drop your jaw an eighth of an inch.

22:41And I'm like, whoa, I didn't even realize I was clenching my jaw. Can I tell you something crazy about that? Yeah. All right, so I got fitted for a mandibular device, which is a fancy way of saying a double decker mouthpiece. Yeah. That is an easier approach to resolving sleep apnea or snoring. So I don't snore a ton, but every once in a while I do, drives my lady insane, understandably. And if you take the jaw and drop it down an eighth of an inch and forward an eighth of an

23:16inch, you open your airway. And I was thinking about that because Henry will often say, as you're alluding to, like drop your jaw and leave it forward as if it's resting on a small pillow ever so slightly. Yeah. And it increases your airflow. Mm-hmm. I mean, these ancients hit on some stuff by trial and error that really just works. It's like, yeah, if you want to have better respiration while you're meditating and better alignment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just do what Henry's describing. And I will

23:50say his dulcet British tones. Yeah. If you just want a relaxing voice. Yeah. That will help you with chilling the fuck out when your monkey mind is ricocheting inside your skull, try Henry out. You can find free stuff everywhere. I've had him on the podcast a bunch as well as Meditation Mondays for a while, which were these very short episodes of guided meditations. In any case, you know, I've been so, it's the right word. I mean, overjoyed sounds too dramatic, but I'll just say happy for you to watch your path with meditation

24:21because it seems like you get so much nourishment and grounding from it. And no offense, you're kind of a spaz. You're kind of a spaz. Like you get excited about shit and then you drop stuff that is very well exemplified and like, Tim, you got to buy this stock. And then you never tell me when you sell. And I'm like, Oh fuck, I'm fucked. Oh, but you want to talk about, hold on, hold on, no, no, no, no, no. Cause you gave me a real winner. Yeah. You should have held. It's fine. No, but anyway, literally Tim gives me this tip and I'm like, all right, I'm in. And then

24:54like a day and a half later, I'm down. Like, I know that's why you got to wait. The point of the story is I thought I was meditation thing. Just like every nine months, you're like, I'm moving to Android. And then I'm like, yeah, let me start the timer for two weeks before you come back to iPhone. I'm like, yeah, it's a meditation thing. Yeah, sure. We'll see. I give it two weeks and you've stuck with it. And five years now. Yeah. It's really made me happy as your friend to see something that gives you that consistency.

25:30That's it. There's nothing more to add. I've been really not sure of the right way to put it. I've just been very reassured by you having that constant in your life. One of the things I'm curious about speaking of constants and kind of like how things change since we've known each other and you had hair and all that other shit. My hair wasn't great. Still got plenty of hair. It's not on my head. Yeah, exactly. The braids on there. The question I'm curious about is I've been thinking a lot lately as I kind of march towards 50. What are the things that I've always said that I want

26:03to do that? I'm just like, you know, I've got a thousand bookmarks on Instagram, like all these Japanese woodworking things. It's always woodworking. It's always woodworking. Well, I got you to have a, you know, this is how bad of my, speaking of the monkey mind and bouncing around. I literally have, for some reason, the algorithm is now giving me like those motherfucking boats inside of bottles. Like people making the boats in the bottles. I'm like, am I going to be a boat in the bottle guy? Like, I don't know. Maybe like, I realize now I think the next couple of decades, like I want to stop bullshitting myself and

26:35stop saying like, Hey, one day, one day I'll get in the Japanese woodworking one day. I'll do this and really start doing some things. Yeah. You've been really good. Cause you, like you archery hunting, like the stuff that you've gotten into, you've gone deep on the last few years. Are there any things that are on your kind of bucket list of things where you say one day, you know, you're busy with your podcast and I'll be like, shit, you got to go on. Oh, podcast, shoot me in the head. It's, it's fine. And it's fun most of the time, but it's so crowded. And it's like, man, if 20 other people are trying to do the same job, I don't

27:08want to do this job. It is wild how many new podcasters there are out there. Well, also, they're also optimizing every little freaking thing. All the thumbnails. All the thumbnails. Like what you need to know before your crypto crashes next week now. And I'm like, oh God, I just don't want to play that game. And for me, I would say the most top of mind is rock climbing. Actually, I just did some outdoor rock climbing a couple of days ago and I love rock climbing. I was always for at least the last 15 years limited by my right elbow, which

27:40I had surgically repaired. So it's ready to go. And I want to do some multi-pitch stuff in Yosemite. Dude, let's go. Yeah. So, I don't know if I want to say this.

27:52All right. That's a good start. So, you know who's a big rock climber? Yeah. Yeah. He goes out to Yosemite. I'm sure. We should go. Okay. Because he's like inviting me to go up there and do some climbing. He looks like someone who would be good. Apparently, he's amazing. Yeah. And I'm like, dude, I can't go do multi-pitch with Yosemite. And he's like, ah, just come out. We'll have fun. Blah, blah, blah. No, that's how you end up fucked. Yes. Exactly. I did multi-pitch when I was like 24. And it was like three pitches. Like

28:22I didn't do Yosemite. Yeah. No, that's a commitment. Yeah. So, the idea of having something like that to strive for, having some type of physical goal like that, for me, is very helpful. Because just not dying, like training to not die sooner than is necessary is not sufficient for me. Yeah. I'm just like, that's such a depressing, uninvigorating goal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd much rather have something that has a deadline, right? It's like, all right, you

28:56need to be able to do X. In the case of the archery, it's like Lancaster Classic. Here's the date. You need to do this type of training and this type of volume with this type of deliberate practice in order to be prepared to train and then compete, right? Okay. Similarly, for something like a multi-pitch, it's like, okay, you can break that down. And I just enjoy doing that stuff. Dude, so let me ask you a question. The number two, I don't know if you saw this on my, the number two story I had was this guy, Michael Eckhart. Do you know who he is?

29:26No, no idea. Oh my God. Okay. So Huberman and Rogan and all these guys, they've talked about him publicly about this guy. He has won multiple pull-up world championships. And dude, when you watch him do a pull-up, he's kind of one of those guys that can bring the bar all the way down and just like the typewriter and all that stuff. Yeah. Like, you know, like the, like we're like, yeah, you can walk with your feet and shit. It's like all the calisthenics. Yeah. But he has a series of videos that teach you how to do finger strength training. And I bought his course and I'm doing this right now. All

30:00this could be, you got me into that wooden device, the nug, the nug. So dude, you got to watch his videos. They're amazing. Like seriously, like Joe's really into them. Like this guy is Michael Eckhart. You can find him on Instagram and it's all about grip strength pull-ups. He's not big, but he's shredded. When I think about like in the next 10 years, like I don't need to be big, big. It's probably not. It's probably not what you want. Right. Especially for rock climbing. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you need to be lean, right? Like and strong. And that's what I love about this. So I'm getting into, I'm doing these every single

30:34day. I've not won two days in. I'm getting into it. You know, tell us about the nug. Cause that was something that you turned me on to. The nug, I mean, I have it in my suitcase at the hotel here. It's just a simple little wooden device. It looks like a very large bar of soap with these different indentations carved into the sides. Like little finger indentations. Yeah, exactly. So you can use a carabiner to connect it to say a cable machine of some type in any gym. And look, you could use a loading pin and all this, then the other thing, a daisy

31:07chain, but let's put that aside. At a gym, you could use a cable and connect it through the loop with carabiner and work on your hand strength. And you brought this to Santa Fe when we were out there doing that meditation thing. I did. Yeah. It's literally something small enough to slip into my sweatshirt pocket. So it's easy to travel with. I always travel with that and a band for multiple purposes for like something called DNS kind of core exercises. And I know DNS. Yeah. So I use a band for that and it's incredibly easy to travel with. And then a handful of other things, something called an

31:41alpha ball, which I use for different types of kind of mobility. It's the size of like a very large, soft, soft ball. And all of this stuff fits into the corner of a suitcase. And then I'll do also something that maybe we haven't talked about called Abrahangs, Abrahamsen, Emil Abrahamsen, very well-known rock climber on YouTube and Abrahangs. I'm writing this down right now. Yeah. Abrahangs are pretty simple. I mean, it's partial body weight hangs in different positions

32:15for 10 seconds on 50 seconds off for 10 minutes. And you do that twice a day. And it's very, very moderate in intensity with like a wooden kind of rock climbing kind of like, yeah, you could use a hang board. You could use it. I mean, you could also use a pull-up bar depending on how you position your hands. And that's what I was doing in Santa Fe was that kind of stuff, 10 seconds on 50 seconds off. And the endurance and strength gains that you get in your hands are just insane. I should say your lower arms and it really helps. I've been doing,

32:49indoor climbing, but ultimately I'm like, you know what? There's a stretch goal, multi-pitch outdoor Yosemite. That's just, and I am deadly terrified of heights. Just talking, like, look at my hands. Like I'm sweaty just talking about heights. Dude, when I watched Free Solo, my hands were sweating the entire time. Yeah. For people that haven't seen the documentary, even if you're not into rock climbing, like that is amazing. Yeah. Watch Free Solo. It'll freak you out. So that's one that I'm thinking about going deep on. I'd say that's very high up on the

33:21list because- That's awesome, dude. We're going to be, let's do it together. I'm into it. Yeah, I'm into it. I am totally into it. I mean, the rock climbing, when approached in a reasonable way, like a systematic reasonable way, not with like crazy dyno movements on bouldering, younger bodies can handle it. Certain bodies can handle it. My body, not so much. Like I do not want to fall repeatedly from 10, 15 feet up. I'm just not into it. So- In the case of doing it reasonably though, for instance, I spent a bunch of time, I've spent a lot of time in Utah and climbing in some of the Salt Lake City indoor gyms, you have

33:56incredible athletes. And I'll make that a little finer tuned. When I would go to the gym, it was generally like 11 a.m. Who the hell goes to the rock climbing gym at 11 a.m. on a weekday? These are retirees and moms. So you would see, for instance, these like 60, 70, 75, almost 80-year-olds who are doing like 5'11 plus. This is when you were single. So that was like, I'm hunting. Yeah, exactly. Cougarville. And you would just see these people in their 60s and 70s doing

34:33things that I could not even imagine doing. With complete inversion on overhangs. Oh yeah, I've seen this. Like 60, 70 feet up, you had the national speed climbing team. You had Olympians. But more than like the young guns, right? The 15-year-olds who are doing all this crazy stuff because they're impervious. It was the people in their 60s and 70s who were climbing every day that inspired me to want to take this more seriously. So I was like, okay, I want to play the long

35:04game here. What can I do that's fun? It's a puzzle. There's a lot of Tetris. They literally call bouldering, they call problems. Problems. Yeah, exactly. And so there's a lot of brainpower involved. And also it's just to give an idea of the technicality. I mean, there are, for example, women who cannot do five pull-ups, who can climb 513, 514. That's very, very, very, very, very hard just for people who have no reference point. Like world-class, like 514, 515. Like insane. Insane. Like that's when you're in

35:38the magazines, right? And it's because of the technical depthness. And yeah, there's like Ape Index and other physiological factors that play into it. But that is a very long answer to your question of what I'm thinking about now, which is rock climbing.

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37:14The archery was great. And the competition was fantastic. I love competing. However, archery is by definition, incredibly solitary. Like you're just by yourself doing the same thing over and over and over again, thousands of times. And I've had enough of that in my life. I've hit my quota. I want to hang out with other people. Yeah. Climbing is super social because you sit there and if neither of you can do it, you'll be like, ah, like what if you put your like foot in like that and like kind of lunged up that way

37:44and stretched, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. And then you can ask other people for tips like beta, right? Like you give me some beta on this. It's fun. It's really fun. I just love it. You know, I wanted to mention something if people haven't read it, the blade itself, which is a series. It's not very long. I think it's two or three volumes by Joe Abercrombie. It's a fantasy novels. They're really good. The audio books are incredible. And the reason I thought of this, the blade itself, is because of our conversation around Ohm and Toaster and, you

38:17know, a friend of mine just died in a plane crash. Jesus. Less than two weeks ago. Wait, the one that, the NetJet's one that went, oh, you knew him? Yeah, Josh. Oh God, that was a latitude too. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. So you just don't know when your time is up. Yeah. And in the blade itself, I mean, there are a lot of various, yeah, thanks. And we weren't like super close friends, but certainly like friendly, you know, acquaintances, like we've, it wouldn't be strange to text. And you just don't know when your time is up. And

38:49the blade itself explores this in a million different dimensions. It's really, really outstanding. I've read, I say that as someone who's read a lot of fantasy and it just talks about the randomness of life or death and war. Right. It's like, you happen to like squat down, take a shit and the guy next to you gets an arrow through the head. It's like, it's just dumb luck. Yeah. Which is a way to, I suppose, reiterate the gratitude piece that you were mentioning earlier. So, I mean, that's going to be a tough act to follow. Where do you want to go from that?

39:23Yeah. I mean, a few things, let's change it up to, well, let's just go straight into like working out. Um, have you tried this? Yeah, I have actually. Okay. I really like it. Yeah. So for people that are on audio, I just got turned onto this new protein called pioneer pastures and it's 30 grams in this little tiny shake. It's a two. So it has lactose removed and it's also from that special genetic cow. Do you know more about the a two? Can you speak to it? I've heard about the a two. I don't know a whole lot about it. It's like the whole Stein and some other cow and more people tolerate a two better than not. I don't get any stomach issues or anything with

40:00this type of whey protein. Anyway, this is not, I'm not an investor or any shit like that. This is, you can get a target or whatever. It's tasty as hell and it's 30 grams. And I don't know if you're trying to put a little muscle mass. I love that this is next to the Lalo tequila. Exactly. I mean, you can make something you want. Everything you're growing by needs. Anyway, I just, I just wanted to know if you had tried it. Cause like we always, this is the random shit. I've tried it. Yeah. I tried it. I do. Yeah. There's a gym. I can't remember exactly. Brooklyn barbell club where they sold this and I tried it then and I did. Yeah. Tolerate it super well. Didn't get the grumpy

40:32guts as one might. What's your favorite protein out of curiosity? I mean, my protein, I mean, this is a softball pitch, but funny you should ask Kevin. Uh, I'm look, I'm involved with this one, but you know, you know what? I, it's like, I always disclose. Have you noticed how few fucking people disclose what they're involved with? They're like, yeah, I've heard of this great thing. Oh my God. And they never disclose they're involved. The fact that I'm involved. You can literally go to jail for that shit. No, I know. But the FTC doesn't enforce that stuff. Anyway, I mean, right now, like I'm traveling

41:04with Maui Nui as usual. This one though is kind of interesting. I probably get 40% of my protein from Maui Nui venison. This is wild harvested axis deer from Hawaii. There's a long story there, but incredibly nutrient dense. I love this shit. And this is not an ad, but I do have a hard question for you. Like a real hard question. And this is how you know that it's not an ad because you are what I'm about to say. Let's hear it. Processed meat, nitrates linked to a lot of cancer and bad shit. What are your thoughts on that? This is very, very, very minimally processed.

41:36So you can get summer sausage or the sticks. This is free if most of that bullshit. What do you think that is? Cause it is real. Like people that eat more nitrate processed, ultra processed meats. Yeah. If it's ultra processed and the shelf life is like three years, I would raise an eyebrow and probably hit pause. So the fact of the matter is most of this stuff that is minimally processed almost definitionally is not going to last very long on the shelf. What do they mean by minimally processed when you see like a meat stick? Like what do you think about that versus is it the amount of salt content that creates the nitrates? Like what?

42:10No, no, it's actually nitrates are a totally separate category. So you're, you're looking to, I think an easy heuristic for this is just shelf life, right? Like how long will, how long are those, uh, your eye, your, your eyes are going to be better than mine. If you can read this size two font on this, then you can tell me that that give it a go. Uh, and I'll buy you some time in the meantime, 27 years. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. 25 years. It doesn't say on here. Yeah. It'll say somewhere on the box. There we go.

42:41Oh, 27. Best buy. Yeah. 27. So it's like less than one year, I think actually looking at it here. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Less than one year. Wow. Yeah. And what makes this interesting is that this, I give also Molly looks really good for 12 years. I give her probably two or three of these a week. The way I think of this, this is peppered 10. So there are a bunch of these different sticks. Like every professional team you can imagine uses these things in their training, but this is made with wild harvested venison, liver, and heart.

43:12So it has some organ meat in it. You do not taste that. It just tastes like regular jerky stick, but I treat this like a multivitamin. So it's like, I take, let's call it two or three of these a week and limit it to that. And then the rest of the time I'm taking their other either peppered or regular sticks. But this is when I'm on the go. I mean, literally this was in my bag when I got here, right? When I'm on the go, I'm traveling with this, probably some nuts of some type, like pistachios or whatever. Walnut's pretty good for a host of

43:44reasons. And that's about it. I mean, I might have a couple of servings of exogenous ketones, but I haven't taken that stuff in a couple of months. You told me, you freaked me out. It messes up your liver. This is a controversial topic. So yeah, there are certain exogenous ketones that contain something called 1,3-butanediol. It's very common. And there's a lot of debate around this. So the jury is still out, but some people believe that that can produce liver toxicity. So I consume anything

44:20with 1,3-butanediol in moderation. Now to play, not devil's advocate, but to do a counterpoint, a lot of the people who are putting forth that hypothesis or claiming that's true are selling their own ketone salts. So they're actually selling a competitive product. So question mark, question mark. You can look at the peer-reviewed literature and decide for yourself. What I have decided personally is that you should use the exogenous ketones very intermittently. I have experimented a lot with every type of exogenous ketone you can imagine.

44:55I mean, you got me on that good shit. It's expensive as hell, but like that stuff goes straight to your head. The one that you didn't want to talk about. We can talk about it. You know, it's funny is like when Tim, this is how, you know, it's good off camera. Tim's like, I don't want to mention the brand because if I do, it'll sell out and I won't be able to get my own supply. And that's how I knew. I was like, that's some good shit. Tim wants to guard his own supply of it. Like, you know, it's good. Yeah. And, and it is good, but it's BHB. I won't get too much into the technicality here, but it's beta hydroxybutyrate bonded to one, three butane dial. So you're still getting that one,

45:30three butane dial, which means you take it in moderation, but in a pinch, when you want it for a podcast or something like that, man, it really works. It does work. It really works. And I mean, I've given it to relatives with dementia and within 20 minutes, their sentences have like five X in length and they're more acute verbally. It's wild. How do you give it? I wish they had it in pill form because in some sense, it's really hard to give that to someone that has dementia. Cause it's like, it tastes like gasoline.

46:01It doesn't taste great. It's not the worst thing. I mean, I've had a lot of foul stuff in my life. I just did a shot with this person and I was like, I'll do it with you. And then we went for a walk and that was it. There are some concerns around one, three butane dial and balance. So particularly in older adults, you do not want to contribute to any risk of breaking a hip. That's just the death knell for a lot of people. I just had to put my mom into a different home that has, it's actually kind of cool. It's sad,

46:33but she's been falling. They had this like new AI orb that sits up there and it kind of does like a kind of radar type situation and it detects falls. So the second she falls in the home, like they can rush in and like help her out and all that. They carpet the hell out of it now and stuff like that. How do you think about pre grieving that or contending with that yourself in terms of family? That's rough. I mean, it doesn't sound easy, you know, so if you're like play forward the tape, right. It's like, I mean, I think about this with my own parents and it's just like nobody lasts

47:07forever. You know, it's, it's one of those things where it's so funny. Cause when you're a teenager and I remember when my dad was having a hard time standing and this was like when I was much younger before he passed and I was like, Oh, dad's going to be in like the thing that I might have to like push him on it. If he has to sit down and kind of those walkers, it can also be something you can push somebody on. I was so embarrassed, you know, I was like, Oh, are people are looking at us or whatever.

And now I like push my mom with pride, like in the inner, like Walker thing. And I'm like, I don't know. You don't know when it's going to, what's going to happen, but it's like, the only thing you can do is just make sure to show up, you know, and hang out. And I'm very

47:41lucky that I, my mom has dementia, but it's, it is a type that is not Alzheimer's. So it's like, it's probably vascular or something. So I can walk in and she knows who I am. She can't tell you what she had for breakfast, but she knows who I am, which is like, I'll take that all day long. I know you have family members that are in the same boat. I have a ton of family members with Alzheimer's. I mean, literally I got a call from one of my relatives wanting to discuss, interventions. And it's a tough conversation because there really isn't much like you have

48:12to, as far as I can tell, act preemptively, which is why actually this relates to another bullet of mine. I, you have five. What was that? I just, how many, how many bullets did you have? Oh, how many bullets? Yeah. That was good. Of all, of all the rye whiskeys. It's the only one that I can tolerate. I loathe stationary bikes. I just, I, I really find stationary biking to be one of the most soul crushing things in the world. It's the worst. However, yeah. I mean, I've tried

48:45Peloton and didn't like their ergonomics and so on for a bunch of reasons. And then I have tried very expensive, very, very expensive setups recommended to me by fancy doctors and so on, which are just like too uncomfortable. Like I'm incredibly hunched over. Like my back is basically parallel with the floor. Dude, what are you talking about? And I'm like meeing myself in the stomach. It's so uncomfortable. Like crunching machines? What are you talking about? No, no. I'm talking about getting on like a stationary bike, but if you're in like a racing position, you have to

49:15adopt this hunchback. And like, there are a million reasons why I find that uncomfortable. There is a bike, however, it's very easy to find. It's pretty common in public gyms called the Kaiser M3i studio indoor bike. I don't know why they have to make it so difficult and it's nomenclature, but the Kaiser M3i is unique in my experience in that you can elevate the handlebars enough to sit in a comfortable position with a decent saddle, meaning the seat, such that I can do the V2 and the V4 and

49:52all of that training for me in a comfortable position without compromising my low back, which has been a huge step forward. So this is the only bike that I've used consistently for this kind of training. And I was having a number of conversations with a neuroscientist named Dr. Tommy Wood over a period of weeks. And if for instance, you do something called the Norwegian 4x4. There's data to suggest that it's VO2 max training. So it's very, very, very intense, but it's like four minutes on, three to four minutes off. Let's just call it three minutes,

50:24four minutes on, three minutes off. And you do that for four rounds. This is the only bike that I've been able to use to do this consistently. And if you do that for, I think it's three times a week for five to six months, the volumetric changes, meaning the neuroanatomical changes and the hippocampus and other areas that are certainly indicated in things like Alzheimer's lasts for up to five years. Wow. So if you do five to six months of gutting it out three times a week, the results, the dividends pay off for, it seems up to, or possibly beyond five years.

51:00Holy shit. Crazy. Wow. So that's probably some sauna in there and you're like, well, that's what I'm doing. Yeah. I'm doing, you know, I'm doing all the usual stuff, right? I'm doing the sauna and don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, okay, sure. You don't have 30 minutes to do it. Like do 10 minutes. Like you can't do a sauna, take a hot bath, like figure it out. You know what my good is that I like? It's not perfect, but it's good, which is I go on my treadmill. I set it to 4.75 or something incline.

51:30Yeah. So it's like not crazy, but it's not, you know, I can still do shit. Yeah. And I set it to only like 2.5 on the walking. Yeah. And I'll play Duolingo chess because they have chess on there now for Duolingo. They teach you chess. It's amazing. That's cool. And you can play friends and live people and all that stuff. And they do game replays and they teach it. I'm learning a ton and 30, 40 minutes go by and you're drenched in sweat. I know it's not high intensity and all the benefits on the cognitive side seem to be around like a lot of high. Yeah. But who knows? But it's

52:03good. It's doing something. It's doing something. Right. So I've really enjoyed that. Like if you, if you just want something to both be learning and engaged and kind of like having fun. Yeah. So you forget about the time. Do you know what I'm talking about? Where it's like, you just like, oh wait, what time is it? Oh shit. I've been on for 37 minutes. I can get off now. You know? Yeah. I love that type of cardio. Yeah. I mean, for me, I mean, this is going to sound like maybe a step down, but it's like the older I get, the more I realize like a little goes a long way.

52:33Yesterday, for instance, like I had a bunch of stuff stacked up and I won't bore people with the commitments, but I didn't really have any time to go to the gym and it was my day to go to the gym to do X, Y, and ZX sets. And I went in and I did like three sets. I was literally in there for five minutes and I left, but it's better than nothing. Right. Totally. Right. Something is better than nothing. I'm not going to go to the Olympics with that approach, but let's fucking be real. I'm not going to the Olympics period. I mean, maybe it's like a bystander. Yeah. Oh man. You know, I'll throw

53:06some new random stuff in there. There's a study that got my attention. It's been out since 2025, September 22. This is in JAMA. And this is the title single treatment with MM 120. And then in parentheses, Lisergide, I think is how that's pronounced in generalized anxiety disorder. So this is, this is, this is a randomized clinical trial looking at anxiety, which is often comorbid meaning happening at the same time as depressive disorders. And I think this is sponsored by a

53:42company called Definium, which used to be mind med. In any case. I know where this is going. I just looked it up. Yeah. Yeah. Well this, so what's interesting about this and they're not going to maybe love my comparison, but so MM 120 Lisergide, I mean, it's comparable to LSD, right? And this is a multi-arm clinical trial. They did five arms, which is rare to do because the risk is that they'll blend together. So the arm means a group who has, is treated with a different intervention in this,

54:15in this case. So they've got placebo, 25 micrograms, 50 micrograms, a hundred micrograms, and 200 micrograms. A hundred mics is. That's what they give standard for LSD. That's, that's what you can think of as a standard hit. Yeah. A hundred micrograms. And the results are wild, man. If you look at the HAM-A score, this is up to 12 weeks out. You can see, I'll just show you, how it's dose dependent. The more you take, basically the better it goes over up to, and I'm not sure how long the

54:47follow-ups continued, but where you land is you see that like the 100 micrograms and 200 are very, very close. Yeah. Yeah. Like 25 and 50 are certainly a lot higher. Now are you still getting the same psychedelic experience with this stuff? In the case of this particular compound, I don't know. My guess would be yes. I could be totally wrong in that. So definium, feel free to correct me. I am guessing the answer is yes with MM120. But what that says to me is, hey, 12 weeks of relief

55:22with GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, which I've been clinically diagnosed with, that and OCD, like 12 weeks is pretty good. And it seems like at least according to the data in this study, the minimum effective dose would be a hundred micrograms. Now a hundred micrograms, at least for me and for a lot of people, you will be tripping your balls off, not to get too technical. Wait a second. Dude, it says that this was done at Neuroscape at UCSF. Was it really? This is Adam's lab. No shit. Are you serious? I'm dead serious. I just clicked through on it. It says phase three trial of MM120

55:55for GAD. Oh, that's amazing. This is our buddy. This is our buddy Adam. Okay. Well, I have a text that I need to send them. Oh my God. That's awesome. I wonder if I indirectly funded this because I helped fund some of Neuroscape stuff. That's funny. Isn't that hilarious? Yeah. I did not look at that. That's hilarious. Small world. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There you go. So, you know, it's interesting for GAD, we were talking about dementia. There's a case report with high dose psilocybin mushrooms. I don't think it

56:28was actually psilocybin synthesized looking at this particular thing. It was a Japanese elderly woman with dementia. It may have been Alzheimer's who took, I can't believe they did this to her. Five grams, right? Yeah. And then she took five grams. So Terrence McKenna, heroic dose, somehow fell asleep for like 19 hours or something obscene, which would be very, very worrisome if you're like the child of said parent, wakes up and then starts having like full expositional conversations

57:01in contrast with her previous like monosyllabic or single word responses to things. And it was transient. It didn't last forever, but it raises some very interesting questions. I've seen at least some case reports also with LSD producing similar effects. And I've been interested in this for probably a decade, right? Like I've kind of, I've hypothesized this could be the case. It's just like, do you really want to give your parent like under what circumstances

57:32is it ethical to give someone hallucinations? I could never do that to my mom because she was always anti all this stuff. And then the second, like, God forbid they have a bad trip. Like, why would you want to put them through that? Yeah. So, so it's curious. I was, I was sent something by, well, someone I won't mention, but a very interesting case report on microdosing with LSD with someone with dementia. But did it work? Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. And in terms of similar to the ketones, not saying the mechanism is the same, but producing

58:06much more verbal fluidity, right? Going from like, uh, I'm good. It depends, right? I have relatives who are limited to that now. Like they're basically giving answers that are non-answers. Sounds good, right? Like these things that you could use as a reply to anything. Right. They're not necessarily grokking what's happening to full paragraphs, right? Which means to my interpretation, it's like offline to online, right? It's a really stark difference. Like,

58:37because with the one word, two word answers, like you don't actually know if they're understanding what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. So. Do you have some MM120 on you right now? No, I don't. I don't. If I did, I'd probably not take it to nine necessarily. It's like, if you see a weird cut in the video and then we get infinitely smarter. Yeah. You'll know why. A little glitch here, there. Yeah. Exactly. It's a flash and all of a sudden we're just like, brain man. Yeah. For the smarter, I would keep it probably to 20 mics or below. We'll see. But I found this

59:07pretty interesting for GAD especially and then for the dementia piece, but it raises a lot of ethical questions. What is ethical to use as a treatment in someone who cannot give consent? Right. Right. That's a tough, gnarly problem. Right. Yeah. Especially if you're dealing with stuff that is not exactly prescription medication. Yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. If it goes sideways, you feel like an asshole. Well, yeah. To put it mildly. Yeah. To put it mildly. But if it's amazing and it gives you another, you know, half day with a parent or a loved one and you can full

59:41and have conversations and they see you and you see them in a way that you hadn't in six months, like, or a year, that's amazing. Right. Yeah. Or if it potentially slows the decline. Yeah. I think it's too much to hope for a reversal, frankly. Yeah. But there are some strange phenomena out there, man. Like there's this phenomenon called terminal lucidity where someone like on their deathbed when they've been vegetated. Oh, I've heard about this. And like. What's that book that I told you to read? Did you read that? I'm not sure. The afterlife book? No, I didn't read that. Okay. Because they talk about that. But this is well documented where people

1:00:14suddenly, they have been basically vegetative. Right. Or completely unable to respond to any stimulus. In like the last two days, they come fully lucid. Yeah. They become totally lucid. Yeah. And they have full blown, extensive conversations. That's why I know. What the fuck is going on there? Dude, I'm telling you, it is so weird to me that we think like, like a lot of the things that we do in physical form, like what we do in life, like mimics nature in many ways. And all of our data is like backed up in the cloud. And we're like, oh, we're not backed up in the cloud in any way. And then there's these people with like full blown entanglements in their brain, full on, you know,

1:00:48the Alzheimer's for like a decade and they become completely lucid. Where is that coming from? Okay. I see what you're saying. I was, I wasn't tracking that fully for a second. If it's, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's like, if it's all localized, right? I'm saying like, if all of that ability is localized within the confines of the skull, how do you explain this given all the structural deterioration? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I don't have good answers for that. I just don't. It is a well-documented, as far as I know, a well-documented

1:01:19phenomenon. So it's like, go figure that one out. I mean, I'm not qualified way above my pay grade. I mean, crazy, man. It's wild. So I'll give a shout out to somebody. We're not going to open this right now because we'll start chewing on them and it'll be the, we'll be up all night. Is that the 120? No, this is new tonic. N-E-U-T-O-N-I-C. No tropics. See that's a pun. No tropics. Cause these are toothpicks that I was given by a podcaster you may recognize named Chris Williamson.

1:01:50And they have, they have like 20, I want to say 20, I might be getting that off, but like 20,