The Psychology of Weight Loss

Introduction

0:00Welcome to Everything's Psychology, the show that asks why we do what we do and then dives into the world of psychology to find the answers. Are you on a diet right now? Yes, you. You listening right now. Are you intermittent fasting? Or have you maybe gone the other way and adopted a high-protein diet? Have you got a shelf full of books to help you shed the pounds and get

0:33that summer beach bod? Or are you maybe considering a weight-loss jab, such as a Zempick or Manjaro?

Body Image

0:40When the world seems to focus on the need to have a fit and a firm body, what is this doing to people's self-esteem and their body image? Weight loss is an area overfed with myths, fads and some ridiculously bad science. So I've asked two brilliant guests to cut through all of the noise, share some very frank views on what works and what does not work, and give you practical ideas to get where you want to be. With me are Dr Joanna Silver, a leading psychologist specialising

1:15in eating disorders, body image and mental health. And Matt White, author of The Snack Monkey, How to Stop Eating the Whole Packet. Hello both of you. Hi.

Losing Weight

1:30Let's start with probably the most difficult question here. Why is losing weight so hard to do? Jo, what's your thoughts from your side? I think when it comes to our relationship with food, it's very complicated. So thinking about weight, it's never as simple as, well, I just need to eat less, for example, because often people will eat for particular emotional reasons, whether it's eating for comfort, whether it's eating for punishment, whether it's people are eating, you know, because

2:06they're starving the rest of the time. So I think it's really complex in looking at people's emotional relationship with food. And also thinking about people's beliefs about food. So often people may have the, you, if I've eaten one thing, I've ruined everything, I might as well have the whole packet. Or, you know, sometimes there's a morality to food, so eating certain foods are good, and eating other foods are good. I believe that food is not moral. But I think having that kind of view means that if

2:38people slip, they feel they've done something morally wrong and really beat themselves up.

Snack Monkey Concept

2:43Matt, I think that ties in quite nicely, that idea that you convince yourself morally, ethically, behaviourally, that you've done bad things, you've done good things, whatever it is. And I think most of us have stood in front of the fridge at 11 o'clock at night, eating something which maybe we promised ourselves we wouldn't. And in your book, you describe this sort of metaphorical fight with us at that moment. Can you go into that a little? Yeah. So the idea is that there's two systems in your brain. There's one that plans ahead,

3:17buys vegetables, gets you a gym membership. I call that the captain. And then there's the other, which in my book is a smooth talking, smiling used car salesman that says, go on, one won't hurt. You've had a hard day, you deserve it. And that's the snack monkey. I came up with the idea based on the things that I'd done over the last, you know, 40 years. I used to be quite fat. I had a 41 inch waist. And so I was the person who was standing in the kitchen at 9, 10, 11 o'clock, looking in the

3:51fridge, didn't really feel hungry. I just wanted to do something and I was drawn to doing it. And I'm also the person that would, as Joanna was saying, would constantly beat myself up if I was on a diet or I was trying to be good with my food. And then I'd have the donut at work or I'd have something and I'd feel, oh, hold on, this is now ruined now. And then I would beat myself. And that process is actually the thing that then caused me to eat more of the bad food. Almost, I called it the fuck it button in the book. The little monkey has pushed the button and then I've said, fuck it,

4:25I'm not going to eat this. The diet's gone. I'm just going to eat everything now. I may as well

Environmental Factors

4:29eat the whole packet. But the bigger question when you were saying, why is it hard? I think part of it's a reason it's hard to lose weight is the world is actually now massively stacked against us. And we're not just fighting our own self-control because it's not about self-control. Losing weight is not about self-control. We're fighting a system where foods are designed to make us want to eat it, that bliss point, the perfect blend of sugar and salt and fat to make

5:02us want more, the more-ish element. We actually train ourselves, our parents train us and we train our kids that when you have a good thing at work or a good thing at school, you go out for food, you go and have ice cream, you go and have treats. We've actually trained ourselves. So the environment is massively stacked against us. Can we train ourselves to have broccoli and want that as a treat? Well, it doesn't quite meet the bliss point, but theoretically you could. I don't see why. It's a habit, right? You could train yourself into the habit, that habit loop, but there isn't much

5:37reward compared to other foods. You don't get much of a dopamine response from having a piece of broccoli unless you absolutely love broccoli. Yeah. And I think we'll get into the social side or the culture of where the environment, I suppose, of which is around us, which maybe promotes processed convenience, sugary foods more than anything else, I'm sure. But I'm just going back to your snack monkey versus the captain idea, which comes from your book. I mean, that as a psychologist myself and as a behavioural psychologist, that maps really well to what we call dual process

6:11theory, the idea that we do have two mental systems running in parallel. That system one is very fast. It's very automatic. It's very emotional. It's very important. You shouldn't underestimate it because it's pretty much stood us in good stead and kept us alive for hundreds of thousands of years. And system two, which is that slow, deliberative, very rational idea, which is the captain side of it. And I think that idea is interesting. I find that personally

6:41interesting because whilst it's a metaphorical idea, there have been people who've tried to map it onto neuroscience with the triune brain theory of the frontal cortex versus the limbic system or have you. But I also know that people like Lisa Feldman Barrett has written about how that's nonsense. But as a metaphor, it's understandable and it's relational and you can get it. And it's something I think people have got for quite a long time as well because, you know, but going back to Plato, he called it the deaf horse in the team. It's the part of the team that isn't going to listen

7:16to you. It's going to go its own way. And often it's quite a strong thing. Marcus Aurelius expressed the importance of the secret force hidden deep within us. And, you know, it's come through quite a lot of things. Even Adam Smith, famous as an economist, wrote a paper called The Theory of Moral Sentiments, where he warned people about the passions against the impartial spectator that goes on inside our own heads. So it's definitely a theory where you're in good company there, Matt,

7:47I think. I think that's a great compliment. But I think the reality is I actually took their ideas and I just refrained it. I haven't come up with anything new. It's just, it's more, maybe it's more relatable in my way than a deaf horse. Although in, you know, in Plato's time, it probably was relatable then. My way is just a fun, easy to understand way of explaining it. But more importantly, actually, I think the biggest thing is mine isn't, it's not, I stress the fact there's

8:19not a good part and a bad part. They are both part of you, as you're saying, they were both part of you. So when you give in to the negative voice, you're not really giving in to the negative voice. You're just doing a thing. And I think that's the big piece. It's not good and bad, positive, negative. The morality piece that Joanna was saying, it doesn't really exist in this case. It's just things that we do. Some things we want to do, some things we should do, some things we shouldn't do.

Shame Cycle

8:46Joanna, from your side again, why is that important that we don't villainise a part of ourselves in this way, the good thing and the bad thing? I think as humans, we often want to rebel. So I think as soon as we tell ourselves, right, we should be doing X, Y, all we want is Z. So I think even in terms of, you know, the way I like to see foods as neutral, you know, there is a time and a place for all foods. And I think that actually thinking that you are allowed anything that you want, as long

9:20as you want it, is so helpful. Because as soon as, you know, it's very interesting, you were talking about broccoli. I don't think I've ever met any client with an eating disorder or disordered eating who does binge on broccoli. And it's always the foods that people are trying not to eat, that they will binge on, which makes them feel really, really, really guilty. And they can often really start the cycle of binge eating. And then some people will feel so appalled with themselves that they will make themselves sick and restrict.

9:50So I think that as soon as we, you know, label all foods as food, as fuel, as a way of connecting, actually, they become kind of less, you know, less naughty, less, and sometimes less desirable. And I think, you know, as you were saying that, actually approaching your choices with curiosity, if you find yourself that you are, you know, eating and you're not hungry, not berating yourself, but thinking, I wonder what the function of this was. And it may be, you know, for some people that they're soothing themselves. And maybe that at that moment in time, they haven't found

10:25another way to manage their emotions and to really hold that with compassion. I'm wondering if we, I guess we do have a problem. You see it in the papers quite a lot of obesity, epidemics or increasing figures. And it reminded me of a Guardian article that I saw, it was a couple of years ago now, by George Monbiot. And basically, he started his article by showing a photograph of sunbathers on Brighton Beach in 1976. And if you're watching this episode, I'll put it up on the screen so you can see that photograph now. Now, what Monbiot pointed out was that that

11:01photograph looked like an alien race, because everyone was so slim compared to when he was

Obesity Epidemic

11:10writing it in 2018, something like that. Jo, do you think we do have a problem? I think we have many problems. And I think it's important not to overestimate that we have an obesity problem, because I think we also have an eating disorder problem. And I think that often there's at the moment, you know, there's a huge, huge, huge, you know, the media is talking about obesity, the media is saying we need to be slimmer. And actually, I think that what is not being spoken about is what is the impact on people. And, you know, we are all in different bodies. And I think it's

11:44important to realise that we all have different set points. And some people are naturally in a bigger body, and maybe really healthy in a bigger body. So I think that we have, as I said, I think we have many problems. But I think that what worries me a lot is the relationship that people have with food and the messages that they're internalising and what they're then doing to their bodies and minds. Yeah, okay. And you mentioned there that you split a difference out between obesity and an eating disorder. I guess, when does enjoying your food or even comfort eating, I suppose, change into an

12:21eating disorder? When does one end and one begin? Is there a clear psychological line? Or is there more of a spectrum?

Eating Disorders

12:30Yeah, I mean, I think it is, it's great if people enjoy their food, you know, we want people to have pleasure from food, food has often been used to socialise. We certainly don't want it to be punitive or strict. And I think some degree of comfort eating is normal. So you know, it may be that you're, I don't know, had a relationship breakup and that you turn to some ice cream once in a while. I think when it becomes what we call binge eating, you know, binge eating is very different. The person will describe eating a large amount of food in a short amount of time. And I think what is particular

13:06to binge eating is that they don't want the food. They're often not even able to taste the food. And they really can describe zoning out, that they're not present. And then afterwards, real feelings of shame and guilt. So as with all of these things, there's not one clear cut. But I think it's looking at the function, looking at the frequency, how the person feels, and I think most importantly, looking at the distress and the impact that it has on the person's life.

13:37Okay, yeah. And is that from something like, I guess DSM-5 will present criteria or any sort of frequency thresholds for when eating is considered a problem? Is that how you diagnose your binge eating disorder, for instance? It's one way and it's a guide. But I also think that we don't need to be slaves to diagnostic criteria. A lot of people who I see in my practice are really, really distressed and may not fit one particular diagnosis or may have fits of both. And I think it's really important

14:10to validate any distress whatsoever. If you're using food as a way of managing your feelings, then it's important to have help. Yes. Okay. And I've read some articles from you on that and you talked about the distress that people might feel after eating and that shame cycle again. And I think that shame cycle is interesting because behaviourally, it's a trap, isn't it? That research you constantly highlights, but I think it's all very well being in research. If it doesn't actually get out to people so that people can feel okay about it, that shame is actually one of the most powerful,

14:43aversive emotional states that we can experience. And yet, paradoxically, it tends to drive the very behaviour that it's punishing. Yeah. Why do we feel that? Going back to Matt's point about the media and the environment, the context of which we eat and judge ourselves against maybe other people, is that where the problem stems from in a lot of the people that you work with? Yeah. I think, as you said, I think shame is central to eating disorders or disordered eating. And I think it perhaps it comes back to, you know, many of the

15:17messages that people have received, you know, without meaning to growing up, the idea, you know, going back to, oh, I've been really good today, or I've been really naughty today. And there are a lot of phrases about that have been passed down intergenerationally, a second on the lips, a lifetime on the hips, you can never be too slim. So I think all of these messages are really, really internalised. And that sometimes restricting can be seen as you are doing a good thing, you are doing a virtuous thing. And therefore, eating can bring a lot of shame and eating certain foods and having

15:50a particular body type can bring shame. And as you were saying, people then will deal with their shame in the best way that they know. And that can often involve, as we said, binging, or restricting or making themselves sick. And then that can bring an absolute, as you said, another layer of shame that I know that this is wrong. You know, I know that making myself sick is, you know, people will have real, real moral judgments about that. Or, you know, people will say that I feel like, you know,

16:21X for eating this amount. And then often then the shame kicks in. And the way that people will manage the shame is then by turning to the eating disorder as a way of punishing themselves. So I think, yeah, the people I see are often just crippled by that shame. And I think, you know, coming to therapy and coming to group therapy is a really, really good way of, you know, shame wants to be in secret, shame wants to isolate. And when you're with other people and talking about it, it can have a really powerful function of slowly reducing the shame.

Personal Journey

16:52Yeah. Matt, you've had a very personal journey with weight loss. Is the shame cycle something you can relate to? Definitely. From multiple breeds. So I also had issues where I was, I was never officially diagnosed as having an eating disorder. But I have a pain, chronic pain condition as well. I've had it since I was 13. So my relationship with food has been, it's purely as fuel to start with. And then as I got older and the pain got worse, I would find myself being sick if I ate. And it isn't even

17:27if I ate too much. It's just if I ate, I tended to, at certain times of the day, I tended to have a pain wave and I tended to be sick. And in my own head, I then felt, because people around me said, you must be, you know, you must be bulimic. You must be having this eating disorder. Even though clinically, there is a perfectly valid reason for it. And now I've gone through all of the stages of, well, acceptance of the fact that these are the times when I should eat, these are the times I shouldn't eat. If I eat now and I eat a small amount, I'm not going to be sick. All of those

17:58types of things is the pain condition still there. But the shame still happened, even though I didn't actually have a reason for it. And then that shame then also led to me thinking, well, once they're accusing me of that, I will just eat that much more. That fuck it button again. And so I ate more and I would find myself eating way more. And it's not just a case of eating the whole packet. I'd eat the whole like extra large Domino's pizza. Yeah. And Joanna, if you have a patient come to you, you're speaking with someone, and I'm sure lots of people listening are going to relate to that shame,

18:28not with an eating disorder maybe, but it's a very natural thing, isn't it? What would you say to somebody to break that shame cycle? Yeah, I would say that, you know, whatever you're feeling or experiencing, it's not your fault. Um, so I would really, really de-shame that. I think that if you, you know, think you might be suffering from an eating disorder, eating disorders are serious, you know, mental health illnesses, they're not a choice, and that you don't need to suffer alone. And it can be really,

19:02really hard to talk to someone. But actually, that can be the first step. And it's really brave. And I think that, you know, your journey through, and as we said, it's not just eating disorders. But if you are using food for other purposes, you know, it can be very, very difficult. Because if you start, you know, what we're asking people to do often is to give up their coping mechanism. And that can be very hard, you know, if you're used to feeling sad, and then eating or feeling angry, and you're not doing that, sometimes you can be left with, gosh, you know, how do I manage these feelings?

19:35So I think that, yeah, I think to really, really just, you know, see, see where you're at and approach yourself with compassion, you know, compassion and shame don't go very well together. And it can be very hard to be compassionate to yourself. But it can be very, very helpful. And to be very forgiving, you know, you're going to get this wrong, even if you are taking steps to improve your relationship with food, we expect blips along the way. And I think that, you know, realising that that is very, very normal, and being forgiven and compassionate and not pressing

20:08the effort button. Can I just jump in there? Because what Jonah was saying about talking to people, that was probably the biggest thing. I still don't really talk to people about it, but I've become a lot more open. And it's the same equivalent, right? In my head, at least for me, it was the same. I'm sharing, and it's no longer in the dark, it's out in the light. And just someone seeing it is actually enough to reduce the shame. Joanna's, you know, it's bang on the money. Just somebody else knowing is enough to reduce, somebody else knowing who isn't judgmental,

20:42I should say, is enough to start reducing those shame levels. And did those people then help you? They were on the journey with you? They were almost accountable? Some, yes. Some, no. And one of the things I write about in the book is I actually took an idea from David Goggins and the foxhole. He talks about the foxhole crew. There are people in your life who you automatically surround yourself with. Some of them think they're helping you, but they're not. Some of them, and a good example of that is if someone says, oh, I know that you're studying for

21:15this, but you've had a really hard day, it's okay to not do the study tonight. Well, no, it's not. That doesn't help you at all. It might be okay to not do it, but that's not a support. It's a comfort. There are those other people who will, in the face of it, you will think would be incredibly supportive to you. But actually, they're the ones who are trying to pull you down. Because for whether it's for their own reasons, well, it feels like they're trying to pull you down, I should say. I can't say they are. But they are undermining you. They are shaming. They are

21:49making the shame worse in that instance. Other people are incredibly supportive, both from a comfort and from encouraging you to do the thing. You know, I had friends who, when I was trying to lose weight, the traditional way of just going to the gym, they changed their schedule to go to the gym with me, to give me some accountability so that I was less likely to quit. Those are true friends, right? Those are the people who are in your corner supporting you. But I also had people that know that, oh, if you're tired, here, have a donut. And literally, it was that, which is the last thing

22:22I want, because that's just going to make me feel bad again. Yeah. It's that difference, isn't it, between that? People can have the same intention that they want to help, but they have that loving intention in the fact they want Matt to be happy in the short term, especially, and especially within their company. And then there's actually the short-term can be quite painful, but you're getting to where you want to be, which ultimately is helping. And the real people that love you are the ones that will go through that pain. And like you say, help construct that environment of which it makes it easier to do what you wish to do,

22:56and harder to do what you don't wish to do.

Support System

22:59I've come to a slightly different view over the years, which is the people who are comforting you may very well still love you. I mean, my mum is the best example of that. She is the person who always comes up with a reason why I shouldn't necessarily do the thing I'm pushing myself to do. It's not because she doesn't love me, it's because she wants me to be safe and comfortable, as opposed to drive to the thing that I'm doing. Yes. I wonder if also what we're talking about is the ability for other people to tolerate your

23:32distress. Because often, as we were saying, people might turn to food because they cannot tolerate their own distress. I can't bear to feel anxious. I can't bear to feel uncertain. And actually, when I'm eating that food, in that moment of time, I don't need to think about it. I have that relief. And as you said, in the short term, these methods work. That's the thing. They can just numb the feelings or whatever it is. Obviously, in the long term, they don't. And they add to it. And I

24:02think that when you are changing your behaviours, it can be, as we said, very, very difficult. Other methods of managing your emotions often don't hit the spot quite as fast in that moment, but in the long term are really helpful. But I think it can be, you know, you mentioned your mum, I think it can be very, very difficult for supporters to see someone upset and want to soothe. And, you know, a lot of the work that I'll do, I'll be working with parents and loved ones, is actually teaching them that to

24:32tolerate their child or their partner's distress. But it's hard because if they don't have the tools, or if they've used food as growing up as a reward or a way of soothing themselves, that is that kind of their language. What can people say to those friends and family that are in that camp? I think often, you know, that the most supportive person is just there alongside the person. I think sometimes people, you know, loved ones can put a lot of pressure to fix. And, you know, generally, people don't necessarily need to have, you know, a friend as a therapist, but just, you know,

25:06being beside you, and I may not be able to make this better, but I'm here, I think can be really, really containing. And I think, you know, also just asking someone, you know, I think that sometimes people are a little bit on tiptoes around people who are suffering from food distress, and perhaps in a calm moment saying, look, my instinct is to do this. You know, how does that feel? Is there anything that I'm doing that is particularly irritating or particularly helpful? Because I think, you know, everyone is different. And to not make assumptions, I would say. I don't know,

25:36Matt, if you've got any other thoughts? Yeah, I think that's, that's a big one. Listening, being, it'd be your, what are you saying? Just being there, I think, listening. But the trouble is, we all want to fix, right? If there's someone that we care about as well, we all want to fix the problem. But the best learning I've found for me and helping, you know, for people helping me is sometimes, and anybody watching this who knows me is going to say, I don't do it very well, necessarily. I always have an answer. Sometimes you've just got to just listen. But then also, there are other times where having that tough love,

26:11if the person in the right circle, and it's knowing the person, because sometimes for me, I need someone to give me that proverbial kick in the ass, because I'm having a bit of a lull. And I know that the second I start moving again, I'm going to feel better. In your book, Matt, obviously, you have given your inner demon a character. You've created the snack monkey. When you were losing weight, why did that help? At the time, I'd like to say, and it'd be a much better sell for the book, if I said,

26:42yes, that's, that's how I did it. But I realised afterwards that I'd kind of, I recognised the voice in my head. And I looked at, you know, habit loops and all of those things. But I didn't really give it, you know, an anthropomorphised monkey in my head. It felt like I had a monkey on my back a lot of the time. But it was, it's a different, and that's kind of where that view came from. That's where the character came from. I did definitely feel though, that I had two, two voices in my head,

27:17one which knew that I was doing the right thing. And that I was making the right plan, and I was doing that. And you do this, that voice is the voice which we tend to all go up with, because if you're failing, you work harder. You try harder, you replan, you redo all of those things.

27:33That was the voice that was, that always seemed to be failing. I now know it wasn't failing. It just wasn't succeeding in the way that I wanted it to. And then I had this other voice, it was just like, oh, go on, you can have that biscuit. It's fine. One doesn't matter. And obviously, one biscuit doesn't matter. One biscuit doesn't form the habit. One biscuit doesn't make the diet. Much like one cigarette doesn't matter. Eating all of the other ones afterwards. Exactly. Eating all of the other ones afterwards. That's the thing which forms a habit. It's the second biscuit that starts things happening.

28:04And so, yes, I suppose the short answer is, yes, it helped because it allowed, made me more aware of the circumstances. But it didn't make it easier because it was a little monkey in my head. But the monkey has strategies. And I think that was the nice thing in your book. The monkey has tricks that it plays on you. And you've got several that you put in the book, the tomorrow lie, the fuck it button, which you've mentioned already, the health halo. What are these briefly? And I guess, which one do you think catches most people out?

28:37I think probably, so they are things that we do. So the tricks, the monkey's tricks are the things that it does to encourage you to do something else. So for instance, the tomorrow lie is we see ourselves, our tomorrow us as a better version of ourselves. So it's easier to say, I'll start tomorrow. I'll start on Monday. When in reality, you're not going to. And actually, we've proven that, or science has proven that we see the future version of us as a stranger, effectively when

29:08they do brain scans. The health halo is the fact that I've done this really healthy thing. I've been to the gym. I've done all of this. Therefore, I've earned these extra things. I've done these healthy things. Therefore, I can do these not. Almost that moralistic. I've done this good thing. Therefore, I can do this bad thing. I think everybody is caught out by all of them. We've all procrastinated. Because the other thing is, it's not just about dieting. But we've all, because that's just procrastination. We've all come up with a justification to start tomorrow, start next

29:39week, start what have you. We've also all got to that point where we've said, oh, screw it. I've done this now. So fuck it. I'm just going to carry on. There's lots of the tricks that we all do. Interestingly, a lot of them can be resolved in basically the same few things or resolved. Awareness is the key thing helped, worked on. I mean, the key thing is awareness, looking at them. And when you do it, there are certain times when I know that I'm going to procrastinate. And it's not dependent on what's coming up on Netflix. It's a base of

30:13where my mental state is, how tired I am, how much I've had to eat, whether I've had my workout. You know, these are things which impact me as an individual. But awareness is probably the key thing for all of them. But I think we all suffer from all of them, right? We all have that inner demon that we do the wrong thing when we know we should be doing something else. Yeah. And Joanna, I was going to ask you, from your perspective, from your clinical perspective, I suppose, are you recognising the things that Matt sort of is talking about in a very relational,

30:45conversational way in the patients that you deal with? Yeah, I guess if we were talking in cognitive behavioural terms, I think a lot of what you're describing, we would call cognitive errors or cognitive distortions. So, you know, very black and white thinking. I've either, you know, eaten brilliantly or eaten terribly or, you know, catastrophising. So these, as you said, it doesn't just come with food. So that's what we would call it. But I think that what is really important, and I think you've made this, is actually having

31:15that awareness and pausing. Because often, you know, life is so fast. And a lot of the people, as I said, who will, you know, be on a binge will actually not even realise they're doing it afterwards, not even taste the food. So I'll often encourage people just to notice, you know, and I think if you haven't been aware of these thoughts, like at the beginning, you may not be able to challenge them. And that's okay, just having the awareness is really important. And then often I'll say to people, as I've hinted at before, you know, I don't believe in you can't have or you can have, but you know, just perhaps take a moment, you know, think of the

31:48pros and the cons of having this, you know, perhaps asking yourself that, you know, is this behaviour in line with my long term goals? And then and then you can make a decision. And sometimes if people, you know, have the urge to binge, and they may really, really feel the urge. And just by saying, okay, I'm going to delay it for five minutes, you know, I'm going to do whatever five minutes, and then I'm going to make a decision. Yeah, okay. And it's interesting, you're both talking about awareness. And the point of view they've got at the moment is to be aware of yourself, to be aware of the things going on inside you and

32:21the maybe the battles that are going on. Another aspect is I imagine there's lots of parents listening, watching to this, who will be thinking about their children, and you making sure and caring in a loving way that they're not creating an environment which may be perpetrating food in a certain way. And I'm interested in Joanna, your view, for parents, I guess, what is the psychologically most harmful thing that they might be doing to their children regarding body image, weight loss,

32:51nutrition, which they might not even be noticing or doing or intending to do? Yeah. And I think I always come from the assumption that the vast majority of parents really do the best that they can. So I think it's important to, you know, not induce any kind of guilt or shame in parents who might be listening. I think that, you know, what, what can be helpful, and I guess what can be harmful is if, you know, if a parent has a difficult relationship with their own body, and perhaps might be talking about it in front of their children. So I don't like this part of my body, or I

33:25don't, you know, I don't look nice in this, that is giving an impression to the children, that, you know, bodies are a source of shame or a project to be working on. And I think that, you know, I think, again, often with really, really, you know, well-meaning intentions, parents can get into the habit of, you know, we only have treats on X amount of days, or, you know, this is a naughty food. And I think, again, that can really be setting it up from a young age, you know, sometimes, again, you know, with the best intentions, parents might keep

33:56certain foods locked up. And again, that's setting the example of these are forbidden foods, these are, you know, these are the foods that are naughty. So I think, where possible, to normalise food, you know, to make food a pleasant environment, you know, opportunity where you can sit down, where you can talk, where you can reflect, and to have, you know, to have all foods. Yeah, okay. What about using food as a reward, I suppose? You know, Matt, you even mentioned treats at the beginning. When we think of treats, we automatically have the sugary foods in mind.

34:29But generally, you know, oh, I get a packet of sweets, I get an ice cream, I get something like this, we get something which is in the from the naughty list, from that cupboard that you said, Joanna, that was locked away. How should parents use food as a reward? Or should they at all? I think it's a hard one. And I think, you know, for example, if someone has finished their exams, it can be really lovely to go out for dinner and to go for your favourite dinner. And I think what's important about that is it's not just about the food. It's about, you know, the whole experience.

35:02And I think that, you know, on a hot day, it would be lovely now to have an ice cream. And that's, again, because that's what I really need in this moment in time. I think when it becomes your only method of reward, and you know, there is nothing else, you know, what could be really rewarding is spending some time with your child and going to the cinema, or, you know, taking them out for the day. So I think it's important to have a variety of ways of expressing love, really. But it's not, you know, it's not to say that food can never be a source of enjoyment and pleasure and connection.

35:37I'm just going to talk about social media, because I think that's something people are talking about. They're worried about it. We've recently had it in the UK that the government are going to ban under-16s from social media. So it is something on parents' minds, of course. Is it a factor, Jo, in people's view of themselves and their body image, I suppose? I think it is a factor. I don't think it's the only factor. I think people have had, you know, body discomfort and disordered eating and eating disorders long before social media.

36:12I think the problem is that it's not regulated. You know, anyone can post on social media, anyone can be a wellness warrior. Kids can be mindlessly looking at it. We can put the best parts of ourselves on social media. So then people can be comparing how they perceive they look with this ideal that may not even be true. So I think that it is a worry. I think that there can be some really good things on social media, but it needs to be treated with real caution. Yeah, fair enough. And I did read in preparation for this that there was some research in 2023 that

36:46found that reducing teens' social media use by 50% led to significant improvements in their body image within weeks. So, you know, there are lots of studies and it's very early days for, I think, of these types of studies, but there's certainly evidence with that. One of the things I found by just looking at my own social media is the amount of, I guess, health-related social media and influences, the ones that push a lifestyle which is clothed in these healthy words, healthy eating

37:20and healthy supplements, but actually might be over-optimising themselves. I know Stephen Bartlett was recently in the papers or being talked about because of his sort of over-optimisation of his life when he said that having three drinks ruined his, I don't think he said ruined his life, I think he said ruined his next following week, just having three drinks and what have you, and he didn't optimise it properly and the way he spoke about it was so scientific. And it just made me think, there's this type of influencer now. And I'll link that to an article

37:54that you wrote and a topic you're interested in, Joanna, about orthorexia. Yeah. Could you explain what orthorexia is and how that can affect people? Yeah. So orthorexia is when someone is very preoccupied and obsessed with healthy eating. So it may be that they're limiting their food or eating certain types of food and that the goal is not to lose weight per se, but to be very healthy. And again, I think it comes back to the distress that it causes. It can really interfere with someone's life. They might be not going out for the

38:28next week or having a very bad week because of three drinks or not going out with friends to social events. So it can really impact someone. I think sometimes, as you were saying on social media, it can almost feel like a sanitised version of an eating disorder or disordered eating, that, you know, something that is really praised. You know, people can get a lot of praise for these lifestyle choices. But I think, you know, when someone looks at them and tries to follow them, it can really impair their life.

38:58Yeah. And I think what struck me psychologically reading about it was that orthorexia is a very, I suppose it's the identity dimension of that. That person isn't just following a diet, they're performing a very aversion of themselves, I suppose, this sort of clean, this pure, this very disciplined, virtuous person. So they've got this identity that, Joanna, does it, does that identity element of it make that very resistant to treatment? Because you're not simply

39:29asking someone to eat differently, you're asking them to become a different person. Yeah, I hate the word clean eating, because then it implies that, you know, what is the other eating? Is that dirty eating? But I think, yeah, I mean, all of us, you know, it's very normal to want to have an identity. And I think if any of us were asked to change their identity, this can really bring up feelings of loss, and grief, and who am I? And I think if someone is known as the person who doesn't eat X, or always runs this amount, it can be really, really difficult, and can feel quite

40:01constraining. And then, you know, what if they do want to go and have a few drinks, it can bring up feelings, if I've let myself down, who am I? And especially if they're posting it on social media, it's like, everyone's seen that, you know, the whole world knows about it. So it can be very constraining. I'm just going to go on and talk about some fads, because diets can be fads.

Fad Diets

40:25And spotting maybe the good ones from the bad ones is very difficult for people. Matt, from your personal point of view, when you were yourself identified as being overweight, did you go through these diets? Did you sort of look at the cabbage diet and all of these things? Or did you try to avoid those? No, I was like everybody else. I tried, you know, Atkins, I tried this, I tried that, I tried, and even now, so at the moment, I carb cycle. But I don't do it as a diet in that way,

40:56I do it as a training thing. And I think that's an important thing. All of the things are taught, well, not all of the things, some of them are truly fats. But a lot of the things out there are actually valid tools for weight loss, for training, for muscle increase, depending on what your goal is. Even the weight loss jabs, if they're being used for the right people in the right way for the right period of time, they have, there are advantages to them. The problem is that there

41:27isn't a magic bullet. And all of the fads, really, they sell themselves as this magic bullet that if I eat this, or I do these things, I'm going to get the magic life that comes at the end of the rainbow. And the reality is that's just not the case. I remember there was one that I did try, the gallon of milk a day diet, where basically, you got all of your protein and fats by drinking a stupid amount of milk a day. And if you worked out a hell of a lot, you bulked up

41:57really quickly. It wasn't sustainable. As soon as you stopped drinking the milk, and actually, after that much milk, you feel quite rough anyway. I was going to say, yeah. And maybe that's the phrase rather than fad, non-sustainable diet. Joanna, from your point of view, I know that was Matt's personal story and narrative to get where he is now. When are people listening to this, what would you say about trying to spot a non-sustainable stroke fad diet to something that actually might work?

42:30Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't even think in terms of the word diet, I would more think about improving your relationship with food. So I think that what we ultimately want, and I know it can be a real journey to get there, is people able to eat intuitively. And often that sounds very easy, but actually, often people cannot eat intuitively. They don't know when they're hungry. They don't know when they're full. So I think that, yeah, and of course, everyone's journey can look a little

43:02bit different. But I think really, really, you know, taking the time to pause, you know, what is it that I actually want in this moment? Is it, you know, food? And it may well be, and that's good. And then I would really encourage people to be able to enjoy it. Or actually, is what I want in this moment, some connection, some soothing. And I think that that is, you know, a really holistic way of thinking about moving forward and being in tune with your body. And I think, you know, for some people, it may be, you know, accepting, you know, the body, the ideal body that some people want,

43:36that it may not be possible to get. You know, we all have a particular set point, and we may never look like those people on Instagram. And I think a lot of that is accepting that, you know, this is my body, and this is the place that my body works best. And Matt mentioned there, probably the elephant in the room, the fairly new weight loss jabs, the weight loss drugs, Zempick, Manjaro, and what have you. Joanna, can you talk about, I guess, what weight loss jabs are, and your view on them?

44:08Yeah, so as we said, they're relatively new, they were first designed for treating obesity and diabetes. And they can make the person feel hungry in a quicker way, and reduce the food noise. I think it's really important to not be black and white about these, you know, weight loss jabs, you hear people who think that they're the best things ever, you hear people who think they're worst things ever. I think there is, as you said before, Matt, I think there is a real time and a place for them, you know, for some people, they've been life changing. And, you know, some people in bigger

44:42bodies have really have, you know, received a lot of shame, a lot of prejudice, a lot of misunderstanding as they've been growing up. And actually, this can really, really help them. And I think that that is absolutely fantastic. I think the worry is, when they're being used by people who do not meet the criteria, you know, so people who are normal weight, who are misusing them, that's really worrying. And when people are not getting the proper psychological help to change their relationship with food, whilst being on them, that, again, is a worry.

45:15Is it that when people are using such drugs, they should really be using in combination with something, a more behavioural aspect, which changes their relationship with food, not simply relying on this to put the earmuffs on the snap monkey, and then you get the body you want, because you're going to come out the other end, not really having learned anything? Exactly. So, ideally, they should be used in conjunction with other support, so that you've got those tools when you can stop the jabs.

45:44Yeah. Matt, if a Zenpec was around when you were going through your journey, do you think you would have come out as strong as you are today? No, definitely not. I probably would have ended up taking it, right? But I don't think I would be as strong as I am today. Resilience and strength comes through effort, you know, from a scientific, you know, from a physiological perspective, you have to work the things to do it, to build up the

46:15resilience and tolerance. And if it had just been an easy thing that I could have taken it, and that would have been that, then I wouldn't have had the strength, the mental strength, the fortitude, the resilience, the physical strength, I just wouldn't have had it. Yeah. I'm going to ask you both some quickfire questions, if that's all right.

46:34I'm going to start with you, Joanna.

46:38BMI, useful measurement or harmful myths? I think that there's a time and a place for it, but overall, it needs to be used in conjunction with other things, and it's certainly not the be-all and end-all and does not tell the whole story.

46:55Calorie counting apps, therapeutic tool or toxic habit? I think overall, I think they can be very dangerous because I think they can make people really obsessed and not being in tune with their body and what their body needs. The diet industry, genuinely helping or exploiting people? I think if it was genuinely helping, people would go on one diet for life and never need to go on again. I think it can really distort people's relationships with food and their bodies.

47:26One food you would prescribe for mental health? I'm not going to name a food, but it would be a food that gives people pleasure and enjoyment and perhaps has connotations of happy memories with other people or by themselves.

47:42Well, that's a brilliant answer. Yeah. And finally, finish this sentence. A healthy relationship with food is... One in which you're in tune with your body and in tune with your other needs. Fantastic. I'm intrigued now as to what mine are going to be, because my answer to that would have been a healthy relationship with food is one that is possible. Well, that would have been a good one.

48:09Too late, Joanna. Too late. Yours was a much better, more encompassing answer. So I'm intrigued as to what mine's going to be. Not sure. I like yours.

48:19It's easier when you're listening to other people's questions, Matt. You've got yours coming. Yeah, here we go. Let's find out. Here we go. Okay, Matt. Willpower. Real psychological force or a convenient fiction? Real psychological force, but not endless.

48:35Start Monday. Rational or trap? Both. Why both? Because starting Monday is sometimes a valid reason, but a lot of the time people do it because they're just procrastinating. And they're not going to start Monday. The worst diet trend of the last decade.

48:57Too many to choose from. The gallon of milk a day one was pretty bad that I did, so I'll take that.

49:06A Zempek. Medical revolution or very expensive shortcut?

49:12I'd say, again, both. In the right thing, it is a medical marvel, but for most of the people, they use it as a shortcut. Complete the sentence. The snack monkey hates it when you... Plan.

49:28What do you mean by plan? When you've put systems in place that mean that the choice is actually less of a choice and more of a habit. A good example is where you pre-portion your food. So rather than having a huge bag of crisps and just say, I'll only eat a few, you portion them up or you put a few in a bowl and you take them away. A couple of closing questions for you just to sum up really. Matt, you've talked about how you personally went from a 41-inch waist to a 34-inch waist. Not through a diet, not through a diet, but through the techniques that you've established in your book.

50:01If someone listening right now is standing at the cupboard, packet of hobnobs in their hand. What's the one thing you would say to them?

50:12Be honest with yourself. Are you bored or are you hungry? And if they say, I'm bored, but I still want the biscuits? Put the biscuits down. Walk around the room. Pick up your phone. Do some texting. Read an email. Read a book and then come back in five, ten minutes later and see if you still want them. Because then you might actually be hungry. Joanna, if you could delete one concept from the public's understanding of eating disorders overnight, that one myth that causes the most damage in most people, what would that be?

50:49That you need to be a certain size to have an eating disorder. Eating disorders, people with eating disorders are all shapes, all sizes, all genders, all races. Brilliant. Thank you so much, both of you, for your time to chat about the psychology of weight loss. Where can people find out more about you and your work, Joanna? So I've got a LinkedIn profile, which is Dr Joanna Silva. And I also work at Ori, which is a treatment clinic for eating disorders. We do intensive daycare and outpatients.

51:20Fantastic. I'll put both of those links in the show notes so people can just click on those easily. And Matt, where can people find out more about the Snap Monkey? So I'm on LinkedIn, one kind of standard thing now, MCFY on LinkedIn. But then also I have the realsnackmonkey.com, which you can also, you asked earlier on about which of the 10 tricks that the Snap Monkey does are the ones where there's actually a quiz, an interactive quiz. So you can work out which one is most appealing to you or most used by you.

51:51But then also the book is available on Amazon. Fantastic. So search for the Snap Monkey on Amazon and Matt's book will come up. Looking down at my pad to decipher all the notes that I've made for my conversation with Joanna and Matt, I've got a few key takeaways. And I think the strong point made by Joanna was that shame can drive the cycle of eating. And that's the often is the core engine of disordered eating. And we should remove, I guess, the morality from food. We should treat food as food.

52:23Approaching eating with curiosity and self-compassion breaks the cycle more effectively than any form of restriction might do. The next thing I've got here is about awareness. Awareness of your eating also came across, I think, from both Matt and Joanna, recognising that our snack monkey plays tricks on us and that our ways to play tricks back on it, such as planning our food, controlling the portion sizes and getting others around us to be supportive and not just caring.

52:58And finally, I think the message was very clear that there isn't a magic bullet to weight loss. I wish I could tell you there was, but there isn't. Not even a Zenpec and a Manjaro. Weight loss drugs, fad diets, calorie apps are tools. They are not solutions. And really, only work, I guess, with the right psychological support that goes along with them. So it isn't that a Zenpec or Manjaro is bad in itself. It is probably bad on its own, though.

53:30And the goal should really be, in Joanna's words, intuitive eating. Being in tune with your body, being aware of your hunger and your actual needs or your boredom, as Matt said. And I loved Joanna's final view that a healthy relationship with food is one that brings joy and is in tune with your body and other needs. In the show notes, you'll find a link to all of Joanna's work and Matt's book, The Snack Monkey. And I'm also going to put a link to an extra book.

54:01And it's one that I contributed to myself called Self-Help Without the Hype. If you're watching this, it's on the shelf behind me. It's actually a short story by Robert Epstein. And it's a conversation between an uncle and his nephew. And it basically encapsulates pretty much everything you need to know about forming healthy habits, whether that be losing weight or biting your nails. And you can read it in 20 minutes. It's a very short book as well. But it's one of those books I was very happy to write the foreword for because it just embodies behavioral psychology in a very accessible way that you're not going to think you're going to lecture to in any way.

54:42Finally, I'm going to do a little cheeky plug of my own. My own book called Behaviour First will be out on October the 29th. And that tackles why we often fail to do what's best for us and what to do about it. You can go to behaviorfirst.co.uk and you can find out all about it. And you can even sign up for the chance to win a free physical copy. And I'll let you know or remind you when it's out again. And you're probably going to hear me banging on about it a little bit more in all the future episodes as well. Thank you very much for listening to Everything Psychology, this episode on the psychology of weight loss.

55:17I'll see you next time. Everything Psychology is a production of weight loss. And we'll see you next time. See you next time. Thank you. Thank you.