Key Change: Questlove on Prince

Introduction

0:00You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe.

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Guest Introduction

1:32This is Key Change, where I talk to fascinating people about the music that changed their lives. And my guest today is Amir Thompson, a.k.a. Questlove, the drummer and founding member of The Roots, as well as an author, a DJ, and an Oscar-winning film director. You know, a song that changed my life is Double Trouble by The Roots. And the liner notes that Questlove wrote to go with the song. There's a change in the drum sound in that song that blew my mind. And Questlove wrote a little bit about the effort that went into getting that drum sound.

2:04And as a drummer myself, I wanted to know everything about that. And that moment, 26 years ago, was maybe when the first seed for Song Exploder got planted in my brain. So, getting to talk to him for this was really special for me. Questlove has an encyclopedic knowledge of music. It's really astounding. He knows so much about so many artists. He's just directed a new documentary about Earth, Wind, and Fire, which is out now. But one of the artists he knows best is Prince. He was recently asked by Rolling Stone to rank the top 100 Prince songs.

2:37And for this episode, we talked about the song that he put at number one on that list.

Prince's Music

2:44My name is Amir Questlove Thompson. And I want to talk about a very special version of Prince's breakthrough 1983 song, Little Red Corvette, specifically the 12-inch remix version. How old were you when you first heard Prince's music? I was seven years old. Prince entered my life in the most unusual way, which was my grandfather, my mother's father,

3:18had just passed away. My mother, my father, lived in the East Coast in Philadelphia, and my mother's side of the family lived in Los Angeles. And the family called my father first to deliver the news. And my father had to deliver this news to my mother, who obviously, and understandably, was very distraught. So this is the first time I'm witnessing my mother having something close to a panic attack. Mind you, I'm seven years old.

3:48So kind of on a reflex, nothing to see here type of reaction, my sister, who's older than I was and was kind of like a parental permanent fixture of my life, just rushes me to my parents' bedroom and instantly grabs, you know, my father's like studio headphones and puts the jack inside the radio and hands me drumsticks. Here, just practice. And what's mommy doing? No, no, no. And she turns up the volume and she puts on WDAS, our station in Philadelphia.

4:24And just as the song Street Wave by the Brothers Johnson is fading out, I remember Doug Henderson saying, and we got a new one from Prince. This is called Soft and Wet. And I remember that my mother would remind me weekly when I begged her to please cut my hair that, no, your afro is your crown and I named you Amir because that means Prince. That was the connection.

4:54So I heard Prince's debut record as my mother is going through the most painful reaction to my grandfather's death. So that's how I remember Prince entering my life in the summer of 1978. Wow. But to tell you the truth, he really didn't make an impression on me. I saw him in my sister's Right On magazine. Right On was basically the black version of like Teen Beat magazine. Like that's where you found out about like, you know, what kind of lasagna Michael Jackson likes or,

5:28you know, the cast of Different Strokes. Like it was a teen fanzine, not like critical writing like Rolling Stone, but that's how I visually knew of Prince. But then there's a moment in 1980 in which my father happens to catch Prince's debut performance on the Midnight Special. Bert Sugarman presents the Midnight Special. Which was a show that came on after The Tonight Show on Friday nights.

6:00The song he's going to sing is called I Want to Be Your Lover. And if he's as hot as he is funky, look out. Right. Please welcome Prince. Now, the thing is, is that Prince, you know, in trying to establish himself as an artist, figured out the quickest way to get attention is sort of sexual controversy. And he would perform in his bikini briefs and leg warmers on stage. And so Prince makes his debut. And out of nowhere, I think a week later, my dad says to me,

6:36hey, that boy that sings in his diapers, I don't like that boy. Don't listen to him. But little did my dad know was all you had to do was say nothing. And Prince would just been like, oh, whatever. But he said, that boy that sings in his diapers. Which is basically like, okay, let me see what the diaper guy's talking about.

6:59Thanks, dad.

Discovering Little Red Corvette

7:00Okay, so Prince is so prolific that by the time 1999 comes out, the album that has Little Red Corvette on it. Yes. It's his fifth album in five years. Had you been listening to all of them along the way? Or when 1999 came out, did you suddenly have a different relationship to that album specifically? Okay, yeah. So the thing is, is all of the hedonistic teenagers of the 60s were now mid-30s, early 40s, in the 80s.

7:35And there was just a wave of guilt in America. Like it starts with Donna Summer, who, you know, was sort of the poster child of everything that we know about Studio 54, like the drugs and the salaciousness and all that stuff. And in 79, she became a born-again Christian. And this was like so viral. And so as a result, especially for black America to see someone saying like, I got to get right with God and all this stuff. So there was an immediate domino effect.

8:07As a result, my once very hip, very with it, revolutionary hippie parents were now just listening to Christian radio, Christian television 24-7. And the first thing that came under fire was just the music that I was consuming. I grew up in a 3,000 record household, but they cut it off in 1981. We stopped buying records. There's a part in your memoir that I love when you write about how much difficulty you had in purchasing and keeping a copy of 1999.

8:45Yeah. I had to starve for it. I was in a Christian school. And when we had lunch hour, you got like a time card. Every month you had to buy like either a weekly card for lunch, which was like, you know, $15. Or you could do a monthly card, which is bring in $35 and then you eat the entire month. And November 1st of 1982, I had a decision to make, which was invest in the most life-changing music I have ever heard, which was three albums from Prince's arsenal.

9:18His 1999 album, the second album by The Time, What Time Is It?, and the debut album from his girl group, Vanity 6. And I decided to starve for the entire month of November and take my $35 lunch cart money and I purchased these three records. And the thing is, is that Prince is using technology I'd never heard. I never knew what a drum machine was or an Oberheim synthesizer.

9:50So the music sounded spacey and just a whole different world. So as a result, the way that my mind exploded with everything I heard during that period was there was nothing like the thrill, the orgasmic discovery of something that's going to change your life. And then one day we're in church and the preacher has like all these records in the pulpit with them. And it's like saying, you know, the demons of America are after our children.

10:21And, you know, first he did a first like a 20-minute tirade on Michael Jackson's Thriller and devils dancing in the graveyard and da-da-da-da-da. And everyone's like clutching their pearls and, oh my God. And then he pulls out the 1999 record and instantly my mom looks at me like, wait a minute, you own that purple album cover, don't you? And I'm like, no. And, you know, he's like up there like, and this demonic. And he turns it upside down and says, look, straight from the Devil's Beast, this 1999 is nothing but a 666 and a penis.

10:57And my mom looked at me like, you do own that record, don't you? And I was like, no, no, I don't. And instantly I went home and it was contraband. Like I had to hide this stuff under my bed in the basement. And sure enough, when it was discovered, I was punished for two weeks and I would just plot and scheme and buy it over again. So between 1982 to like 1987, I purchased the 1999 album probably six times.

11:27Do you remember the very first time you heard Little Red Corvette? Yeah, so the week after this album comes out, I buy it just as drum work alone is setting off like dopamine rushes inside my 11-year-old head. So in my mind, I'm trying to figure out how to make my own drums sound like what I'm hearing Prince do. And I don't know about programming and engineering and making new sounds and all those things. So, yeah, I purchased this album, took it home.

11:59My parents happened to be doing a residency. They were nightclub singers. They were in Puerto Rico. So for two weeks at my grandmother's house, who is absolutely knowledgeless about like all these things, like, you know, I just felt comfortable to play it. And absolutely no repercussions. So I heard Little Red Corvette as the second song on 1999, like, when I purchased this record. And what did you think when you first heard it? What was your first reaction to it? I've never been allergic to a catchy song.

12:33But Little Red Corvette didn't make an impression on me because 1999 is a triple record. And the highlights of 1999 to me happened on, like, side three and side four, in which all the experimental filler stuff was. Because like Stevie Wonder, like Earth, Wind & Fire, like, a sign of a true artist is where your filler is. Like, I never listened or looked for the hits. Like, that's for mere mortals and laymen, you know. Yeah.

13:03Even at 11, I knew that. So I wasn't focused on, like, the Captain Obvious single, you know. So when did your relationship to the song change? One night in April of 83. The only time I was freely allowed to listen to Prince without alerting my parents that I'm listening to the devil's music is when I'm in the basement. On weekdays, I'm required to rehearse three hours a day. On weekends, I have to put in five hours in that musty basement, roaches of rats and everything, practicing my heart out.

13:42And so I would listen to Prince records in my headphones and play to them because, of course, my parents don't know the beats or anything like that. And, you know, some nights I'll just play to the radio when I'm bored of playing to the same records over again. And usually the neighbors start complaining if I play past 10 p.m. Yeah. But, you know, this is also, like, year number five of me having a drum set. And I think the mentality of the neighborhood was, like, we'll put up with the noise because this means that he might be a success one day and escape this place.

14:16So, you know, there's always the one kid in which, like, none of the gang members bother him. None of the—I was that kid. It was, like, Amir's going to make it. And one night during the last hour of rehearsal, Little Red Corvette comes on. It was on the radio. And, of course, it's, like, I know this song. I'm going to turn it off. But I was, like, wait a minute. I don't remember the kick drum being that loud. And so something's instantly different. I'm, like, I think the album version, there's less kick drum or it's lower.

14:47But here it's, like, louder and more, like, oh, I'm bopping my head a little bit. So I'm playing along with it. And then somewhere in, like, the two-minute mark, there's a part of the song I don't know. There's a breakdown. And black folk and breakdown, there's something primitive and beautiful about the breakdown. Meaning, when James Brown gives the drummer's thumb, or when there's that part of the song in which it just goes to its most basic element, that's when the party yells, like, woo!

15:21Like, that brings something out of us in that expression. And so there's a breakdown in the song in which he's individually playing each part that you would otherwise miss in the regular version of the song. And then, at the five-minute, 18-second part of the song, Prince transforms the song. And at the time, I didn't realize what he was doing. I don't know what a remix is, right?

15:51Yeah. But I dropped my drumsticks and was like, what the hell is happening? This is not the Little Rick Corvette that I know. He's singing Little Rick Corvette, but the music is different. And I couldn't quite fathom it. Now, you know, in 70s, because of disco culture, you would have people that did edits. You know, you had these guys that would try to turn a three-minute song into a 15-minute song. So edits are one thing, but to take your song and reimagine it is another.

16:25And this is what I discovered. Prince made Little Rick Corvette as his Hail Mary throw to finally get rock and pop radio to embrace him. He wanted to reach white people, middle America. Yeah. And he needed AM radio and FM radio to embrace him. So thus, he uses, as his Trojan horse, the car song. Everything about the song is tailor-made to attract that audience. Even the lyrics are like, you know, it was Saturday night, and I hope that makes it all right.

16:58Like, that's damn near a cliche 101. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so, all the elements, the metaphors, the dub entendre, the innuendos, him talking about basically, I mean, it's a slut-shaming song. You know, let's get down to brass tacks. The history of unsolicited sexual advice from men to women is, you know, legendary. And this is basically, girl, you're sleeping around with way too many guys. You should be only sleeping with me while I sleep with all the girls I want to.

17:32And he used it as the car song. She's the car, and she's going way too fast, and you need to slow down. That's what it's about. And this song gets to number six on the pop charts. So, you know, for the most part, he kind of got his wish. But this is something about Prince. Prince feels as though, as long as you're ambiguous and keep people guessing, that builds interest in you. And the second that you're defined, people will get bored with you.

18:02So, as a result, throughout his career, anytime he gets notable success, he already has a defensive plan. And this is the first time he does that, which is he creates a 12-inch that comes back to his black fan base to say, Hey, guys, don't get any ideas about me. I didn't sell out. This is for you guys. And what he does is he turns a song which is otherwise in a rock-friendly key of C-sharp major.

18:36Most rock songs are in major keys because that's happy. But at that five-minute and 18-second part of Little Rick Corvette, when he yells, The ride's so smooth, you must be a limousine, he changes the bass line. And he goes to the relative minor, which is B-flat, and then it becomes the funkiest thing ever. I never knew that for every song that exists, you can facelift it and give it a new key, like plastic surgery.

19:09You're allowed to shapeshift the song to appease and please a demographic. So, as a result, he already had his pop success with white people. But not to be outdone, he wants to remind black people, I'm still black, and here's the proof. I'm going to take my white success and dress this thing up so that you accept it too. And when I heard that, my mind exploded because I thought I knew how music worked. And, wow, now I'm listening to every song to see, ooh, what's the counterbalance to that song?

19:48Like, what's the relative major or the relative minor of that song? Now it's just endless possibilities.

19:56My conversation with Questlove continues after this. Thanks so much to Quince for their support. They make really well-made clothes, and their stuff has become a big part of my wardrobe. I've been touring this summer, and, you know, that can be kind of a tricky mission, clothes-wise. I want to feel like myself on stage and feel good about what I'm wearing, and I also need to be comfortable while I'm traveling. So I got this short-sleeve knit button-up that I wore for a lot of the shows, and I love it.

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Influence on Questlove's Career

21:03I'm curious about this idea of the remix and the transformation of the song and how profound that was when you heard it, in terms of how it might have affected how you approached music in your own career then. Yeah. Did you have moments where you're like, I'm going to do that thing? I'm going to do my version of the extended dance remix and transform this song? Or that's just going to be in the song from the beginning? Well, that became my gold standard, period.

21:35At least in terms of investigating a song. I can remember many a time where The Roots were crafting their first album. And during the first album, producer Scott Storch was a member of The Roots. So when we would have jam sessions, I would always yell to Scott, Scott, play the relative minor of that. And he had to figure it out. And then he'd do it. And then it'd be like, oh, my God. Like, that's the song.

22:06You know what I mean? So Prince is using major keys and relative minor keys to lure white audiences and black audiences to serve whatever purpose is at the time. I'm using major and relative minor investigations just to start songwriting. And it turns out that I'm really a fan of a lot of dark minor chords. So everything started as happy-go-lucky. You know, like the one song that we couldn't do that to on our album was a song Mellow My Man from Do You Want More?

22:42Yeah. Which, if you listen to it, it's very sunny, very happy-sounding. And I was nervous. I was like, no, this is too happy, too pop. Like, let's blackenize this. And he did it. And suddenly, like, you know, the rest of the roots and, you know, our manager and the engineer started frowning. Like, you can't blackenize everything, Amir. Like, you have to serve the song. So that's the one song I left alone. But for anything else, it was just investigating, like, is this half full or half empty?

23:16So that's how it affected me. I saw the list that you made of your definitive ranking of the top 100 songs of Prince's career. And you put this remix version of Little Red Corvette at number one. Yeah. And that was earlier this year. So I was just wondering, what is your relationship with the song these days? So after Prince passes, kind of when anyone passes away, I hear their contributions just that much clearer.

23:48I had to lay off of Prince maybe for a good six to eight months after he died because I knew when I started going through his canon, I was going to listen differently. Albums that I criticized as not liking, I was going to hear differently. And sure enough, the cathartic exercise of now hearing Prince as an ancestor as opposed to a present living person that I know was jarring.

24:21And so I didn't want to sort of overdose on it. I wanted to kind of spread it out. So I probably gave anything from that era, 1999, I probably gave it a break for a good eight months before I returned to it to see if indeed his music hit me differently. And sure enough, it did to this day, though, when I'm creating music, I will channel myself by just listening to the song, closing my eyes and really trying to imagine the pressure that Prince was under to make this happen.

24:59Because again, his title track, 1999, which should have been the breakout single, stalled at like number 41. So it didn't even reach the top 40 or the top 10. And so it's like, OK, just give me a week and I'll think of something. And, you know, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone that's been, you know, kind of in his own nightmare of working on an album for 12 years. So I've been listening to a lot of 82 era Prince.

25:32I don't know, to vicariously just maybe see if I can channel or the feel of what it is to be under the gun and you better deliver this or else it's all over like that type of pressure.

Current Relationship with Song

25:45Yeah.

Current Relationship with Song

25:46So that's my relationship to it now. Like I realized that when this song comes out, this is the song that's going to change his life. However, like this remix didn't change his life. Like he had already changed his life. If anything, this remix was created to stop the success that he's been dying to get, which is very artist-like, you know, to sabotage the thing that you've been dying to have. Like, I want this. OK, I don't want this, but I want it. You've got this Earth, Wind and Fire documentary.

26:17Yes. And I apologize if this is a question that you've been asked a million times. But ask it. Are you going to ever do a Prince documentary? I have dreams of what I would like to see. What I really want to see is work that will properly explain what Prince truly means. I'm way too close to Prince just as a North Star to really want to immerse myself into that world in that particular way because I'm too close to it.

26:50And I feel like I'm too biased. It would just be a love letter. Thank you so much. Thank you. You've played a big part in my musical life, and it's always an honor to get to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I appreciate that. If you want to hear more from Questlove on Song Exploder, check out The Roots episode from January 2018 and watch Questlove's new documentary, Earth, Wind and Fire, to be celestial versus that's the way to the world.

27:31For more key change episodes, go to songexploder.net slash key change. This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, and Mary Dolan, with production assistance from Tiger Biscop. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. And if you'd like to hear more from me, you can also subscribe to my newsletter.

28:01You can find a link to it on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishikesh Hiraway. Thanks for listening.

28:15Radiotopia. One of the best podcasts out there is Normal Gossip, and they're back for a new season, Season 10. It's another show from Radiotopia and also from Defector Media. In every episode, they talk to a guest about a piece of gossip from the real world, a story that was sent in by a listener. And then they anonymize it and retell the story to a guest who reacts and gets to say what they would do if they were in the position.

28:48It's really, really fun. I've actually been a guest on the show before. And actually, for the new season, they have a new theme song, which I made. And also, this season, they're doing video. So if you like to watch and listen, you can find the episodes on YouTube. New episodes of Normal Gossip come out every Wednesday, all summer long.