Dog Trainer Q&A

0:00This episode of The Flush Podcast is brought to you by Onyx Hunt, Waltons, North Dakota Tourism, All Clear Hearing Protection, Game Virtual Shooting Simulators, Lucky Duck Kennels, Black Gold Dog Food, and by Federal Ammunition. Today's episode is a dog training Q&A. We're answering the most commonly asked questions that our resident dog trainers, George Lyle and Sonny P. Cars receive. They have a list of questions, I have a list of questions, and the internet has a list of questions. We'll do our best to answer all of them because odds are pretty good that if these

0:32questions are so common, you might want to know the answers too. The Flush. So fast, it hardly seems real. So vivid, the moment freezes in time before erupting in a blur of spurs and feathers. It's why we change the way upland loads are built with Prairie Storm. Exclusive flight control flex-wad technology and a mix of copper-plated lead and flight stopper pellets combine to create dense, deadly shot strains through any choke. Longer shots, more power, fewer missed burns. Only from Federal.

1:05Welcome to another episode of the Flush Podcast. I'm your host, Travis Frank. Big Al is our producer. And we are counting down the days to hunting season. It'll be here before we know it. Our goal is to help get you ready for the hunt. We are going to have some pretty incredible guests coming up in the

1:40coming weeks. And it starts out today with Mr. George Lyle and Mr. Sonny Picars. No strangers to our podcast. They are the dog trainers that we have had on the show many, many times over the years. Our goal is to try to transfer some of their knowledge into your brains to help you understand your dogs, to work with your dogs. So today we decided we are going to talk about the questions that they receive from all kinds of different dog handlers around the country at their seminars.

2:18I also have a few questions that I have received over and over that I think we're going to, if we have time, ask them. And then the internet, Big Al, believe it or not. Oh God, you want to read the internet's questions? I know. So I did a quick search. What are the most common questions dog trainers receive? And the questions are actually really good. So hopefully we can get to them. If we run out of time today, we might have to make this a two-part episode. We'll see how it goes. Well, last time we

2:48had these, both of these two on, we did three episodes. We did. Yeah. Well, we, we tried to break down really, well, we had a puppy if you remember. And I still recommend everybody if they haven't seen them. I've sent a lot of people over there to help try to visualize it. Yeah. To actually see it. Um, today you're going to see George's beautiful hair, sunny. Um, we're going to, we're going to highlight George over there. He's got a pheasant. Uh, what else you got back there over your shoulder? Grouse? Rough grouse, uh, wood, American woodcock and a, uh, lesser prairie chicken

3:27actually. There you go. Taken legally. They are on the threatened list now, but yes. All right. Uh, do you want, do we have listener mail? Yes. I think it's a pretty good one.

3:41Listener mail. We should get George to make us some jingles. George jingles. Yep. This is from, uh, Steve. Um, this was, okay. Most of your shows are about woodcocks, prairie chickens, grouse, ptarmigans, huns, et cetera. I understand these are upland birds. However, your show is called rooster tails. So this is about rooster tails and other TV show, which close enough. Yep. Maybe you could do some shows with pheasants on it. That would be really wonderful. Like you used to do what the hell. I love it. I should clarify that that would

4:11be really wonderful. Like you used to do what the hell is all one, one. So good. I laughed when I saw that one. Thanks for reading it out. It brings joy to my heart because I get this email a couple of times every year. Steve does have a point. It is called rooster tails. He has a great point. And my answer is maybe we need to change the name of that TV show to like upland tails instead, because here's what happened to Steve and anybody else listening that this right here is the flush podcast. Okay. But we also have a television

4:42show called rooster tails and how it originated was when we first started producing upland bird hunting television. It was called pheasants forever television. And it was airing on the versus network, which is a national network. And we knew that not everybody had that channel because it was an additional cable channel that you had to purchase. So we thought, well, here in the Midwest, the Minnesota, the Dakotas, Iowa, Wisconsin, we had a good relationship with a Fox sports North at the time. And we thought, well, let's also give our viewers locally

5:19here, which we have a lot of upland bird hunters, another show that they could watch that might not, they might not have been seeing pheasants forever television. So, um, the spinoff rooster tails was created and essentially it was repackaged episodes of pheasants forever television under the name rooster tails. And eventually the flush came along, which replaced the title of pheasants forever television, which is where we stand today. And this has been going on for, we can't keep track, maybe 15, 16 years of the flush television show. And the goal behind the flush television show

5:54is to feature upland bird hunting adventures that inspire people to get out all over North America. We try to cover a lot of different bird species in different habitats from Alaska to Florida, Maine to Arizona and places in between. And my goal is always to balance that out, to try to find, um, anything from chucker to pheasants, to rough grouse, to woodcock, to bobwhite quail, merns quail, you name it to show people all over the country because the flush is a national TV show

6:25airing on the outdoor channel. Well, the result is that rooster tails has continued on the local networks here. And also now on the sportsman channel, but under the name rooster tails, it implies that all of our shows are pheasants and it just simply is not the case. And every year I get emails just like that. I love it. What the hell do some more pheasant shows? You know, what's really funny about that is you asked about the birds behind me. Yeah. I pointed at all of them, except for the one like really above my head, which is a ring neck pheasant. I didn't, I didn't even

7:00acknowledge the pheasant back there. What an angle he's at. So perhaps we changed the TV show name, which requires more effort and a lot more effort. Oh yeah. We have to change all kinds of stuff. Um, eventually we do air pheasant shows, but the first few episodes of the season are usually timed with the first hunts of the season, which tend to happen on the prairie and they're usually sharp tailed grouse or, you know, something like that. So inevitably we get this email every year,

7:32a couple of times. And I laugh a little bit because people, um, type out that kind of stuff and it's fun to read. So there's the answer to that. George, you live out in South Dakota now. Are you seeing any little chicks running around? It's all my first brood yesterday. How big, how many? That was pretty cool. Uh, I only spotted about four or five. Um, the hen was sitting out on the edge of the road and so I sloped, it was right by my house. So I wasn't going fast anyway. And when I got there, then they started kind of scurrying. They were pretty good size.

8:05So probably a first hatch. Yep. Her original, her original hatch. We like to call it not a first because there's no second. Well, the original attempt, first attempt. Yeah. A first. Yeah. No, they were, they were bigger. I mean, when they were going through the grass, you could see the grass moving their heads were in the grass is probably six, eight inches high. So they were picking their head up, like looking at what's coming down the road, you know? Yeah. We're going to get a lot of reports coming up here in the next couple of weeks. And we're going to do episodes talking about

8:36the bird forecast for different regions, from different pheasants to grouse, you name it. We like to talk with biologists that really study it and give us a good idea of what we might be able to expect in different places in bird country. Those reports and numbers are going to start coming out soon, but it is fun to see them. Obviously, George, you've seen them. I've seen them. And it's really something too. I was thinking about this the other day that my daughter and I, we went for a walk and there's a pond in our neighborhood and there were ducks flying around that were clearly first

9:10attempt. We'll call it George, but you could tell these chicks had hatched, you know, a couple months ago now. And there were some that were so small that they look like they literally just hatched in the last five or 10 days. They were so tiny. And it's just a reminder how we can't really predict exactly when everything's going to happen. It happens in the wild world at its own time. And

9:42some of these birds are going to be smaller this time of the year. If the ducks are at this point, you can expect the grouse and the pheasants are also looking at re-nests and having late hatches based on some of the rains or perhaps losing a nest to a wild critter. So keep that in mind as the numbers come out, wild things are hard to track exactly. But I guess that's what makes it something that we enjoy so much. All right, let's jump right into the episode. We have a ton to get to

10:15today. George Lyle, I don't know how many times you've been on our show, but you bring a lot of dog training wisdom. I think when we started doing shows with you, we used to tell people you've been dog training for 30 years, but I feel like you've been on the show for 10 years now. So should we say 40? Did you see Sonny's face when you said that? I know, I know.

10:36Well, the good thing is, doesn't matter how long I've been dog training, is why my partner in crime is on the show today too. And I learned, I mean, what I know came from Sonny, and then we both had the same mentor, but Sonny Picard is really my mentor. So it doesn't matter how long I've been dog training. I know how long Sonny's been doing it. Sonny, how long have you been training dogs? I laugh because you get that 30-year mark, but now that 30-year mark is probably getting closer to that 35 to even maybe 40. I don't know. But yeah, that's over 35 for sure.

11:10Yeah. And who is your mentor, Sonny? Rick, Rick Smith. Rick Smith. Yep. Of the famous Rick and Ronnie Smith dog training, Delmar Smith, Hunt Smith, Silent Command dog training system. I don't know how many different dog training programs have spun off of that, but I mean, a lot of what you see out there today has some elements of that, right? Yes. Including your method of dog training, which is called The Method. And I think you guys launched

11:45that, what, three years ago, four years ago? George, do you remember? You guys actually, the name come from George because we couldn't come up with a name and he kept calling it The Method. And you guys did the first podcast to mention it, I believe would have been in Minneapolis at Pheasant Fest. So that name stuck. There was no thought put into that name in any way, shape or form. So whatever year that might've been, but it's probably four years. Four years ago, because at least three years. So we talked about it about four years ago and then

12:17about three and a half, about a half year into that, then we had our first introduction and we had guests come to Sonny's place and really launched it. Yeah. What year was that, Travis? You were here. Yeah. I would guess that it was three or four years ago, but in the time that you guys launched that to where you're at now, you continue to do seminars and you continue to teach people. And I think the idea for this episode today is really to kind of take a lot of the questions

12:47that you have received from people over the years. I'm assuming you get a lot of them, the same questions over and over, right? Sure. Yeah. So today we're going to take your most frequently asked questions. I asked you to come with your top 10. And then after we looked at it, there's actually more than 10. And then I put together my most commonly asked questions or the questions I get a lot as well. But just to let people know real quickly, I mean, we've done episodes with you, Sonny and George talking

13:20about your history, but real quick, you've been dog training for how many years, Sonny?

13:27At least 35. And that has evolved over time. You've worked with bird dogs. Right now you're working with bomb detecting dogs as well, right? Are you still in the bird dog world a little bit or are you really focusing right now on these detecting dogs? The kennel is filled up with detection dogs, but I spend at least half my time still on the phone and still answering questions with people's bird dogs. So yeah, I'm still extremely involved in the bird dog world. It's just that there is no bird dog in the kennel anymore.

14:01Gotcha. George, your questions are almost all bird dog related, right? Correct. What people call you, what is your goal between the two of you guys? I'll ask George first. What is your goal when people reach out to you?

14:16My goal is just to help the person wherever they're at, meet the person where they're at, what the situation is. Each dog is different. Each person is different. Although the same struggles are exactly the same. I mean, and it doesn't matter how old the dog is, if it's a puppy to our dog is, everyone seems to always have the same struggle, which is really just a mental state of mind and understanding their dog and where that dog's at. Yeah. And what to do, you know, that's the big, that's the big question. What do I do?

14:49What do I do with this puppy? Everyone spends a lot of time like thinking about getting a puppy. They spend a lot of time, uh, I would say probably looking for a breeder, I would hope. Um, and the family just sits there and talks about it. Right. And, oh my gosh, this new puppy's coming home. And all of a sudden they get the new puppy and they bring it home and they go, then they get this blank stare. What do we do now? What do we do now? You know, or it's a little puppy and they're treating it like a little puppy or putting

15:22human characteristics on it and not giving it the boundaries that it really needs and decision-making that it needs. Um, that puppy was taken away from its mother where the puppy didn't have to make any decisions. And that's the biggest, uh, you know, they stub their toe because all of a sudden the puppy comes into the world and has to start making decisions on its own because the, it comes into a, in a reality where people aren't helping the

15:53pup and saying, don't worry, I've, I'll make the decisions for you. Just like your mother, mother was doing before. And then things just start unraveling and then they get this blank stare in there on their face. And that's where, that's really where we start helping them. And it's like, we could start before that folks, but. Yeah. Well, here's the first question then we're going to get right into your list. Number one, I just got a puppy. What age should we start training? Sonny? Uh, day one, the day that we're bringing it home, you know, back this up a little bit.

16:26A lot of the, the seminar format has, has changed based on what I've learned in the detection world. I thought I was going to step into a, an easier world, just a, more of a retirement type position. Um, that has not been the case, but what I find in the detection world is, is exactly the same. That's in the upland world. It's the exact same dog. It pretty much is the exact same training. If you keep an open mind, you're just, it's just a different kind of a hunt. So, you know, this, that the Alan Dunbar statement, start with the end in mind that I think that's the biggest,

16:58that is the absolute biggest thing we need to ask ourselves. When did we get that puppy? Start with the end in mind and work towards that goal. And then, uh, understanding that that puppy is probably when you picked it up was the worst day of his life. You know, he had really good structure, really good boundaries, a lot of stability, stability, and we bring it home and it completely goes out the door. So that, that's kind of where the conversation start on what we can be doing and how we can just make it be the absolute best. When you say start with the end goal in mind, do you think it would be wise for people to physically write down what that would look like?

17:30Absolutely. And then the breed that's going to fit that slot, you know, back in the day, most of these dogs were bird dogs first and pets second. Today, that is the absolute, it's the absolute opposite. They are pets first and bird dogs second. So right before I quit, I was, we were really seeing that the, our clientele was researching the breed, getting the best possible breed for what they thought they needed. And it just wasn't the case. They were, and they had way too much dog for their home life. When you say that these bomb detecting dogs

18:05and upland bird hunting dogs are the same and you have to, they have the same end goal. What do you mean by that? It's a, it's a hunt. So whether it be a hunt for the bird or a hunt for the, for the weapon, for the bomb, for the zebra mussel, doesn't matter what it is, it's the hunt. And what I'm finding in the detection world is fairly similar. What I found in the upland world is we, we really do get in their way. If we could just offer up opportunity, maintain some stability, keep their mind clear, and then just give them opportunity to do their job. You know,

18:37what their genetics tell them to do, we're going to move a lot faster. Things are going to be a lot cleaner, crisper. So then can you kind of wrap us, wrap our heads around what is our role in this hunt process with the dog? The genetics are there for the dog to do what it needs to do. What's our role and how do we do it correctly? You know, what comes to mind is presentation. So presentation, we're talking about presentation now. Me and Jordan and George talk about presentation now more than we ever have.

19:08Back in the day, the presentation was real easy because we all had access to wild birds. We all had places to go. So today I'm finding that the client is really struggling with the presentation of what to do with the puppy and then getting out of that puppy's way. So presentation being the big issue with the presentation is the golf course is not a good presentation for a upland puppy. The dog park is not a good presentation for the upland puppy. That's a problem. We need to get these dogs where

19:40they're going to be working and then stay out of their way. We are almost at the paralysis by analysis. Our fear is getting in our way to let these puppies loose. I mean, we're so afraid of what might happen. We do nothing. So presentation and offering up opportunity are to me are just two key things that we could be doing that would make life 75% easier on everybody involved. Give them opportunity and a presentation of what they're going to be doing long term, where they can move,

20:14where they can run, creating opportunity and opportunities to cut them loose and experience a little bit of the world. And let them go. Well, what a concept, huh? Right. Yeah. But there's a fear there that the dog is going to run away, not going to come back. No control. You've lost control. The dog is doing whatever it wants. Can you ride a bicycle? Yeah. What happened on your first attempt? I got big air. I hit a jump, probably stuck a perfect landing. Yeah, I'm sure that's

20:46what that did. Most likely. Yeah, I think it was on SportsCenter. But it's kind of like what Sonny's saying. I mean, you put the kid on a bicycle and we're holding onto him. We're presenting the child with their bike and where they are in position. But at some point, you got to let go of the bicycle. What Sonny's saying is you've given the puppy boundaries and all that. But if you, the end goal in mind, I am going to go and take this dog out and hunt something. Take the puppy where it needs, where it can go. Travis, you know, you're one of the conversations that stick in my mind all the

21:21time when I talk to people that call because they're desperate. You know, the stories, the stories that you have told me and the stories that George has told me with Daisy, she had those opportunities. You know, she had the opportunity to run, to move. And then when you got her in your hands, you had no idea what to do with her. But you had so much to work with. That's so much easier than not having that raw material to work with. And that comes from opportunity. So many of these puppies aren't getting opportunity. I just got a call two days ago with a gentleman that's going

21:53to be coming to the seminar. And his dog has got a lot of fear. And he was concerned about coming to the seminar. Is it going to overwhelm it? And the fear is coming from lack of exposure as a baby puppy. You know, they were afraid to let it go. The vet suggested maybe, you know, don't expose it to a lot of things because it's not fully vaccinated. So it just didn't have opportunity. Now he's got a four or five month old puppy that's afraid. That's man-made stuff. Okay. So to get back to that first question, I just got a puppy. What age should we start training?

22:24Day one. What does that look like? How do you explain that to somebody when they ask you that question? What advice are you giving them? So today with working the detection dogs, one of the biggest pieces that I'm finding that's missed across the board is that turn on and off switch. I want to be able to turn you on and then I want to be able to turn you off. So that comes from restriction. That's why I think crate training was just a common thing that we did years ago. I think that we have to explain probably in more depth what that stuff really means. So to put a dog in a crate is to turn it off. To bring it out of the crate is to turn it on. So we might

22:58put it in the crate as that little baby to go to sleep. We might turn it back on to come out to go to the bathroom. That relationship then has started right from day one of this is what we do. So then that puppy gets conditioned to being turned on and turned off. And those puppies that were afraid to lose, there's really no fear because the baby puppy is not going anywhere. It's when that puppy hits that four or five, six month old stage and now it's got a set of wheels but doesn't have the mental capacity on what to do with it. Well, that stuff was learned when it was a baby. You know,

23:30just puppy walks. One of the biggest things I ever took from Delmer's book were those puppy walks. Just take them out and walk them. They're not going to really go anywhere but as they grow, they've now learned how to go with you. So if you allow a puppy to move, you'll never ever lose them. They're not going to run off. And where should they take them? In public, I assume? In parks? In places that they are going to experience others around so that they learn to be okay with it? Yeah, sure. All of the above. Now back in the day, we exposed puppies to upland application

24:03presentations because literally I was looking for performance animals that were going to be on my guide string. But today, you know, they're spending just as much time at the brewery. They're spending, you know, all the family events, what they are in the field. So it's just a matter of keeping that stuff in balance. But if you want that upland application, they have to have that exposure. And that's where the seminar format is drastically flip-flopped. I mean, we're doing birds, birds, and more birds. I mean, that's a huge, huge piece that we're promoting in the seminar

24:35because what I'm personally seeing is these folks are showing up and they've just not had a puppy development. I did a puppy development on a dog in Connecticut that was four or five years old. And you're just treated just like a little baby. Never seen a bird or smelt a bird? Never had a bird before. No. Ooh. No. And what does that light switch look like for a four or five-year-old dog versus a three-month-old dog? Just like I did in a three-month-old dog, but it was six years old. Yep. Had the same fear, had the same bounce away, and then had the same interest. And then within two, three minutes,

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27:22That's so cool, and I do want to remind people that might be tuning in to this podcast. We are going through the top 10 questions that you receive, so we're not going to do the whole process from development to different stages of the puppy's life. We're answering these questions. If you want to go back and listen or watch the full series, it's available on our YouTube channel. I would recommend watching it, not listening. You recommend watching? Yeah, because you can get to see the reaction of the puppy. You could see George walking with the puppy. You can see Sonny crate training. We had multiple dogs at different stages of life that we brought through and discussed what we're

27:56looking for, what these experts are looking for, how they read a dog. It's fascinating stuff. I think the most fascinating thing is watching you guys work with a dog, both George and Sonny and Jordan. When you guys hold the seminars, everyone is just so locked in as to what you're doing and how you handle a dog. It is like something out of this world. It is unbelievable to see, but obviously that comes from a lot of experience and working with the dogs. So back to the development here. So crate

28:30training, right, from day one, going on walks, introducing a bird into that dog's life early and often. Birds, birds, birds, and more birds. Again, back in the day, we never ever thought about that stuff because it was just a given. It's just what we did. It was just ingrained in us to have a lot of bird work. That's not the case today. So the format is switching for birds, birds, and more birds. So day one at the seminar, that's all we're doing is bird work. And it's getting a gauge on where all these puppies are at. So birds are the biggest thing that's missing with today's dog. The dog of

29:06today, birds are what's been missed. They're not getting enough bird work and they're not getting enough field exposure. So this actually, I'm going to jump to one of my questions then, because it ties directly into this one. I don't have access to training pigeons and game farms are too expensive. How can I prepare my dog for hunting season?

29:26Well, that's, you know, here we go. So another one of our goals is to be setting up facilities across the United States. The first one, I believe, is going to be, it will be in Blondhaven. So we've set up, we're in the process of setting up a training format there to where there is going to be birds. There's going to be launchers. There's going to be a presentation, a proper presentation of what that field should look like for that young dog. So all your tools and all the parts and pieces you need are going to be there. I'm hoping to have another one in Minnesota. We've got one in

29:58Connecticut with Jordan. We're hoping to get one fired up in Illinois. That's the future, because that question comes up constantly. And in my previous life, that was never an issue. It was just never an issue. All of my guiding for grouse and woodcock was done within 15 miles of my kennel. I mean, I had birds everywhere, but today's human does not have those same opportunities. So the method is trying to create it. So, but I think that then goes back to the question. I don't have access to

30:28training pigeons and game farms are too expensive. So I think people that want to be a part of the program that you guys are offering, that's still going to be going to a specific location, right? Maybe they're in South Dakota and it's just not feasible for them to get over to work with birds and to hire you guys. What other options do people have? I mean, what do you recommend for somebody that asks this question? I get it pretty regularly. Do as much research as you possibly can and just,

30:59you have to find places to go. And the golf course, the dog parks, they're not it. You can't get that same exposure on a golf course. You will end up with a dog that wants to chase kill deer if you spend your time on a golf course. That just, they're going to be a product, their environment. So just find somebody that can help you. I get that kind of what Sonny just said, the kill deers, the robins. Oh, my dog's got bird drive. It's following robins out in the, out in my yard. I'm like, well, okay, that's a bird,

31:30but that's just a, that's not what we're, that's not what we're after. So you're asking that, that question, Travis, and I don't know that I have the answer, but I do think that as a group, we need to focus on how to, how to create that for the people. It's a problem. Everybody talks about it and we talk about it a bunch. I'm, I'm on a mission to help create it, to, to just help people find places to go. I mean, the shuttle right now is going in between Connecticut and Wisconsin for that reason. There, there's people from here sending

32:01dogs to Connecticut for puppy developments. And there's people from out there that are sending dogs here for wild bird camps. Dogs that get taken on the prairie, dogs that get taken to the woods. So it's, it's a problem. And I would love to have the conversation on how we can, how we can try to help it. Well, and I think it's becoming more challenging too, because laws in different states, you know, you, you think about the dog trailers that used to arrive in Montana on the prairie before hunting season. And they were just exposing dogs to wild birds, right? And helping to build and

32:34keep that drive. And it's becoming a little bit harder to do that now because there are laws in place that limit how people access the lands. And that's a result of exactly what we're talking about right now. People wanting to get their dogs on birds and to work with them in a place that they can see the dog, they can handle the dog, they can come in contact with wild birds and just really build those reps. So the struggle is, is real on where people can go and how to access it. I mean, obviously

33:11you guys are working on a solution. Um, I think people that have access to it should potentially think about their, um, impact on others by continuing to provide their pigeons as, as tools for other people to work with. Right. I mean, we're all in this together. Yeah. Yes. Uh, Travis to kind of answer, uh, maybe this is where the, the question's coming from. Um, get Onyx, get the Onyx app,

33:47start looking around. And as of last week, uh, you could get on, um, some public lands, make sure you're watching the regulations of which public lands you can go on and which ones you can't. But, um, and be aware of, of how old the broods are out there, but you can be out on some public lands right now and working your dog on wild birds. Uh, now it's been a hundred degrees down here. So obviously we're not out running dogs and a hundred degree heat, but, uh, look at what

34:21land is around you that you have, that you would have access public access to, and it's legal to be out there and get your dog exposed. Like we said, a dog park and a golf course in your backyard is not teaching your upland dog about uplands. You have to go into the uplands and you have to be willing to let that pup go and adventure with you and go on a walk. Like Sonny said, take the pup for a walk. And then, you know, fingers crossed. And right now I think there's a lot of wild birds on the landscape in Minnesota, the Dakotas, Iowa. There's a lot of wild birds out there.

34:58The pheasants are there. So, you know, fingers crossed is not always the best, uh, the best, the best fight because we can, I'd like to get into the conversation of dogs that run and dogs that hunt. The other big thing, the other big thing that I'm seeing with our, with the public and the seminars is that if we do have dogs that want to run, that's what they're doing is they're running. They're not hunting. So back in the day, we would do a two week bird and gun introduction and those dogs hunted. Like you could hit the prairie. I could hit South Texas. I could hit

35:30the grouse woods and just a couple of weeks of some intense bird work to create a good presentation. They hunted. So another, another conversation or another issue that we do have to look at today is the difference between a dog that's running and a dog that's hunting. So when we do hit the prairie or we do hit on X to try to figure out what it is we're going to do and where we're going to go, get yourself some mentors that can help you understand cover, understand where those broods should be in the morning, where they should be in the afternoon. Because if you don't harass them, you can work those same broods day after day, after day,

36:03after day, after day, and you will make a bird dog real quick. But it's, it's understanding on what to do. And unfortunately we, yesterday, you know, my previous life, everybody knew what to do. It was so easy. It was just a given. It was just something that everybody knew today. The real struggle is nobody knows what they're looking at. Nobody knows what they're looking for. As far as what cover looks like, just the presentation of what you should be trying to hunt. There's, unfortunately, there's lots of individuals are stumbling around and then

36:36they're getting dogs that are running, that are not hunting. And then of course, then we've got dogs that are running off and now we got dogs that we're trying to find, you know, and then we run into heat and we run into all these other issues. So that's something else that needs to be discussed and try to improve upon. Are dogs that hunt and dogs that run? Well, I think you just nailed it there, Sonny. And that's the fear where people don't do anything because they're too worried about being in the camp of, there goes my dog and the dog runs away and there's no control over it. And ultimately that comes back to obviously the very core of why

37:12you get so many questions and why people come to these seminars and why people send their dogs to trainers because they're scared to make the mistake. And you kind of have to make the mistake to learn how to get through it, I believe. So why do you think there are more questions coming your way now than before? Is it that there are people that just don't have the answers now? Or is it that you're opening yourself up to more people calling you to ask? So therefore you're receiving more.

37:47Do we really know less today than we did 20 years ago?

37:52That's a loaded question. I mean, it's reality though, right? I mean, do we really as a society, as a whole, do we know less today than we did 20 years ago? I think the way I'd answer that question, I think it's, has the, what Sonny's saying and what Dr. Alan Dunbar said, have the, have the end game in mind and people don't have the end game in mind. They have all these games in mind. That's the difference. 20 years ago, I was a bird hunter. Not me. I've always been a bird hunter. I've always trained to be my dogs, to be upland or

38:26waterfall dogs. I wasn't out there for three days out of my entire year. That's, let's face it. That's what most people get. So they're all distracted. So yes, we are dumber than we were before because we have too many end games in mind. What's my golf game doing? Did I, can I go fishing today? The kids are involved in all these other sports. So the amount of time we have with our bird dogs is so limited. I don't know. That's the way I would, go ahead, Sonny. And I think, you know, due to the, boy, we're getting, there's some, we're getting off into

38:59the ditch here pretty good, but I think, I think that the, we have so much access to information that we're overloaded. So then we end up literally being froze up by fear because we see on the internet, we see on the podcast, we see on the Instagram, we see on Facebook, the one dog that might've run into a fence post, the one dog that might've got bit by a snake, the one dog that might've overheated, um, the, the dogs that have been gun-shyed. We have so much information that we're, it's caused us a ton of fear.

39:33All right. Let's go to this question. Number two, cause we're 40 minutes into the show. Thank you. I was going to, I was going to start. Technically we did have two questions. Cause I threw one of mine in. Yeah, we had two. All right. Number two, when can we introduce an e-caller? You're both laughing. You're both smiling. Who wants to take it? That's a, that's a simple, we should, we should spend about 30 seconds on this question. Okay. After your, after the foundation has been built, the e-caller is not to train with. The e-caller is to only enforce what you have trained. So it's, it's just a cue to, to, uh,

40:08get some, get the communication down, right? That, that's all it is. The e-caller is way overthought. It's, it's, it's, it's again, the fear has got everybody just all wrapped up in the fear of doing, doing damage or making a mistake with the e-caller. That e-caller for me is not pulled out till my foundation work is done, till my coursework is done. And it's, it's a little 10 minute task once you've got that foundation work done. So to answer the question, when, when do I use it, it's based on where that dog is at, you know, um, that first year puppy on the prairie,

40:41that first year puppy in the woods, you don't need it. It's there for an insurance policy, more for your tracker than your actually, your actual stim. But if you've done a little bit of work at home, just a, just a minimum amount of work with the course and getting the dog to where you have value, that, that's a huge, that comment is another podcast. What does it mean to actually, to, to be of some value to that animal? If you have some value, you're, he's not going to run off. Therefore, you don't have to really be too terribly concerned about that collar.

41:10So that, that collar to me, it's, that's not a big deal. When the dog is ready, you start to use it. Up until then, don't use it.

41:18And your foundation, Sonny, explain the foundation and what you're looking for from the dog, you're communicating with the dog, and then you go, you have that aha moment or whatever you go, yep, now I can overlay the collar or use the collar just like, cause the collar is nothing more than the lead. The collar is nothing more than the lead. And all you, all you're looking for is a set of brakes and a steering wheel. That's it. You need a set of brakes and a steering wheel. And what that, what's that set of brakes really for? To stop them in case they need to be

41:49stopped. Um, that could be crossing the road or that could be, you know, taking chase on a bird and then just have a steering wheel that I can turn you if you're getting close to that road. You know, I can, that, that piece of property we can't be on. So now I can interrupt your thought process to get you to turn and just go with me. That, that stuff is way over thought. It's, it's not that deep. Well, let's talk about then when to introduce it. Is there a certain age? Is it depending on your training? I mean, people want to know when do I introduce it? So typically that's

42:22going to happen around what a three month old, five month old, um, give us kind of a rough idea so people in their mind can kind of prepare themselves for the process. So, uh, you know, let's just use the, let's just use five months. We'll just use that for a number. Um, but a five month old puppy for me is going to be completely different than a five month old puppy for the average dog owner. And the only reason being is I'm nothing special. It's just that I'm the we're doing it every single day. Um, that dog is not necessarily my house pet. So, and I, it's not

42:56because I know how blurry it makes the world for the dog. So that puppy for me is going to mature faster and he's going to be more focused. He's going to be extremely clear minded. Um, that that's something that we're going to be, I'm going to be drastically putting in the seminar format is we need our dogs to be clear headed. Um, if they're not, then you need to figure out how to get there because when they're not clear headed, they can't process information. So it's going to take longer, but clear headed, meaning they're distracted. The clear headed, meaning that we have some value to

43:27them. Like we actually, we have value in their want. They want to partner with us. They want to be with us. They want to look for instruction. They're not busy. They're not anxious. They're not there. They're very clear headed. And, uh, some of those pictures I sent you, those dogs are extremely clear headed. There's a lot of focus there. They're, they're, they're, they're dialed in. Focus is the perfect word. I was just going to say they're focused on the task and it's cool to see that. That's clear headed. Um, let's move on to number three. My dog will retrieve balls and bumpers,

44:02but not birds. Why George, go ahead. I think it goes back to everything. It was back to being focused. Somewhere they're, they're, they're lost in translation.

44:20But they'll, they'll go out and they'll grab a bumper. They'll go get a ball seven days a week. Why won't they bring a bird back? Because they've had seven days a week chasing that ball and chasing that bumper. The repetitions are done in your backyard with playing with the ball and playing with the bumper. They're, they're only getting that, uh, once a month, twice a month to go actually fetch that bird. But isn't the bird, the, the prize, isn't it the end game for the hunter out there in the field that, that teamwork. I mean, the, the dog's reward is to put that bird in its mouth. So what, what's missing?

44:56You, you started with the bumper and the ball and your repetition has been with the bumper and the ball and you introduced the bird soon enough. And you should have interlaid that, all that together. How do you do it? Do you grab a wing out of the freezer and wrap it around the bumper?

45:15That wouldn't be a bad place to start. And this, this would be the, this is the question for Jordan, because if you've ever watched him perform with his Wells method of fetch on how, what he's doing with the coursework to do the retrieving process, he's got the focus and he's got those dogs clear headed on the course. Well, then when he brings in a bumper, he brings in the paint roller with those baby puppies. Eventually he brings in that frozen bird, then that, that unfroze bird, that fresh killed bird. That's that clear headed dog that understands the course because the relationship has been built and we have that connection to where we have value.

45:50So now the paint roller and the bird are the exact same thing. So it goes, you know, that, that would be a phenomenal question. Too bad he wasn't on here because he is the master at the, at the, my dog will pick up bumpers all day, but it won't pick up the bird. I mean, if you've ever attended one of the seminars, you can watch him within five minutes, have a dog be carrying around a, you know, that, that cold bird.

46:15Some things to watch out for when it comes to introducing that bird, which actually maybe I should wait and look at your questions, but I feel like a bird that's alive, that might be too big with a puppy too small. I mean, can they be scared of it? Is that part of the reason why they won't do it? I mean, are there other factors that could be contributing to this dog, not wanting to pick up a bird, but yet wants to go hunt for it? Yeah, I, I, I sure think so. But my experience with dog that are afraid of birds because, you know, they had a bad experience. Therefore they're

46:47off birds for life. That's never been the case. If there's been proper, proper introduction, proper presentation, they're not going to have trouble with that bird. Okay. So what if they have not had proper introductions and they have had trouble? How do you get over it? Just go back to that early development. Take that, that four-year-old dog, five-year-old dog that I had in Connecticut and just start over with a, with a locked wing pigeon. And then that dog, that five-year-old dog was afraid of that bird. And within just a few minutes of doing a proper presentation, the dog wasn't only wanting to eat the bird, the dog was pointing the bird,

47:19you know, when, in five, 10 minutes. So it's back to that presentation. Oh, I feel like so many things go back to the basics. When you get to a certain level in the process and you struggle with something, always go back to the basics, right? Good rule of thumb, boys. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. It all starts there. It all ends there. Anything you want to add to the bumpers and balls and birds, George? It goes back to the basics and it goes back to what Sonny was just saying. Where was, yeah. My dog ranges too far. How can I get him to hunt closer?

47:56That's number four on your question list. Go ahead, George. Why do you have to laugh at every question? These are real questions from real people. We chuckle because it goes back to question number one and question number two goes back to question number one and three goes back to one and two. And by the time we get to 10, it's going to go back to one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10. So it all goes back. So the question was, my dog ranges too far. Yeah. My dog ranges too far. My dog isn't paying attention. I got to run it 15 miles before we can go in the

48:30field. Why do you have to talk about me? I'm right here. Did you see that I looked right at, well, I looked at you on the screen, not there. So handle the dog, handle it, bring it out of the box and make sure every step is taken. We've talked about working the dog out of a box, but it's got to be clear-minded. You have value. It's paying attention. And we go release the dog and the dog probably just makes a beeline and then we don't handle it and it runs and runs and runs. And then we go, crap,

49:03it's out of range. And now I'm going to try and fight to get it back. Don't fight to get it back. Start at 10 feet. It was our 10 feet. I started in the box. I started on the tailgate. I do all the steps, George, all the steps. She still has to blow that first one for me. And then she's like, okay, I'm cool. We're cool. Now let's do this. And then she is a well-oiled machine. But why do I have to endure that one flush right out of the gate? Because that can just ruin it. Some days that's

49:33it. That's all I get. I got a 20-minute walk right around my house. I'm not going to say a word because I've already gone around this. Do it. I'm asking you to say a word. Sonny, help him out. All right. Because, Travis, that's been your presentation. That's what you guys do. So you get out of the box and you knock that first bird. And from there, it's good. Not we. Not we. That's your presentation. So if you could go back to some basics and give her some instruction, I would just as soon have you point that first bird rather than knock it. You would change the routine. And then we giggle and we, you know, it's this all, these 10 questions,

50:08these 150 questions will all go back to square one. It's a relationship with that animal. That'll work with you. That'll partner with you. That you have, that has, there's value there. The two of you are together. So. We have pointed and flushed, oh gosh, Sonny, thousands of wild birds now in her life. And yet she's still, I mean, the relationship, her and I, of how many birds, not always me pulling

50:40the trigger, my kids, other people when we're hunting, wherever we're at, she's a part of it. She finds a lot of birds, Sonny, a lot. And, you know, why does that first bird have to get put up in the air? She knows what to do. She's did it. She did it yesterday. She found, you know, like what is it that's going on in her brain? She has a mental picture. It's that presentation. She's doing exactly what she did the day before on that first bird. But she knows she's not going to get it. She knows that she, that bird's not going to get

51:14in her mouth and I'm not going to pull the trigger. And she still does it anyway. And then after that, she'll lock them down. She will lock them down. I will walk up. I will kick the grass and up comes a bird. I'll pull the trigger. She'll grab it, bring it to hand. I will put it in my vest. I will tap her on the head and she'll go find the next one. Why does it have to be this way? Right out of the gate. I put the lead on her. I release her. I stop her. I turn her. George, you're laughing. I know you.

51:45I'm going to bring her out to your house and you're going to do it. And I'm going to video the whole thing. I'm going to put you on the internet. George, I'm out. I've tried to help him three times. I'll see if you can do it. It is the presentation. It's the, it's Daisy goes like this, took a picture. I mean, a long, long time ago. And it's been the same way ever since. And you got to remember, she had that picture when she was this big and people that aren't looking at eight weeks old, Tyler Webster, let her do whatever she wanted because he was busy and all the pups run around. And Daisy's a bird

52:20finding machine. She is a wild bird finding machine because that's how she grew up. But she also grew up. That first snapshot was, I do what I want to do. This first bird's mine. I'm going to do it. So if you're not going to listen, you're not going to listen, handle her or show up every morning with a pigeon in your pocket, go throw it in the grass and let her go eat, chase that pigeon and get it out of your system. I don't know. I've tried to change your mind, but it's never

52:51changing. No, I'm listening and I'm trying. I'm doing these things. I'm stopping her. George, he says that every time we have you on. I know, but I want you to, I want you to do it. Sonny, did I say anything that wasn't true? No, it's all true. No, it's all true. I get that. I'm I'm standing in agreement with you. I'm trying to overcome this with her. She's six years old now. This is what Sonny does. Sonny, Sonny says, George, take a shot at it. I took a shot at it. Now, P-Cars, go. She's six years old. Let her be, you know, with, with all these, with the, with the

53:26best dog they've ever had in my career, they've all had a fair amount of outlaw that, that stayed with them. Yeah. The best ones were on the verge of always being out of control. Because when George and I were wrestling with her out in Montana, he literally, this stuck with me. He goes, Hey, if you don't want her, Sonny, P-Cars will take her in a second. Because I knew you wanted. And I said, and I said, I'd take her. Yeah, I know. Totally. That dog would be on the Texas string in a heartbeat because she could have five rattlesnakes hanging off of her and she

53:56wouldn't care. She's going to go find a bird. She's going to, she's going to have a javelina chaser and she's going to go, you can't catch me. I'm the gingerbread man. I am going to go find quail. I am going to go find chucker. I am going to go find pheasants. I'm going to go find rough grouse. That's, that's her live with it. Totally. So Sonny, the outlaw part of her is what makes her who she is. Okay. I will be telling stories with tears coming down my cheeks in 20 years when I can't hunt with her, you know? And I guess my question is, do I just have to

54:30accept her the way she is? Or I say, yes, it's been 51 minutes now. We should probably keep going with the questions. Okay. You guys are kind of getting off in a daisy now. Thanks, Al. Thanks, Al. Yep. Okay. All right. Here we go. My dog gets too close to the bird when pointing. So then I assume the bird flushes before the hunter can get a shot and do the flushing, right? Yeah, that would be, that's just, that's a good puppy development. That was a good presentation. Now, if we're assuming, let's just, let's just stick with wild birds.

55:03If and when that, that young dog gets too close to that bird, that bird is going to fly off. It's not going to catch it. So now you've got a dog that's, that's hunting, not just running around. Now it's time to steady it. That, that's, that's the real answer there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On a preserved bird, that's a different application. That's again where Jordan would come in because he, unfortunately, we're just his part of the world. They do a lot with preserved birds. Mm-hmm. But that, that puppy development needs to be there to where they know how to find them.

55:35If they can find them and they can punch them and they can chase them, boy, you better be smiling from ear to ear because you've now got a bird dog. Okay. So on, on the wild side of it, um, does that dog just have to keep finding more birds and keep flushing them, uh, before they realize that it's their mistake? And how do you interact with that? How do you correct or step in to partner with the dog at this point? Yeah. So, so everything is natural right up until the point where that dog punches that bird. That in the, in the, in the real world, that dog then would, would try to chase it

56:09down and eat it. But of course we want to be able to get a shot at the bird. So that's where the, the instincts of the dog are, are ending. And we're going to step in to say, no, now it's going to be, you know, our part of the game. And that's where the steadiness comes in. So the phase two of the method seminar will teach the taking chase. But if we don't have a dog that wants to chase birds, we just don't have much of a dog. Um, there's a whole nother podcast on what some of the dog clubs are doing as far as to get dogs steady. They're young puppies coming out

56:41on check cords and they're trying to steady them right up at that three, four, five months old stage. And they've never had an opportunity to hunt, to chase and, and run to hunt. So that, that dog that's got some time on it, that has now learned to hunt, that's efficient at finding birds, literally efficient at finding them and is now wanting to chase them off. Now it's time to take that chase and steady that dog. That's a, that's a beautiful problem to have. Yeah. Typically what age are we looking at on those dogs that are doing that? Again, based on the, based on the work that's been done

57:14with it. But, um, you know, the, uh, the rule was always kind of give them that first season because that's where they learned to hunt. Um, and I guess I could probably still stick with that. But for me, it was, didn't matter the age of the dog when that dog was efficient, when I could cut it loose and I seen birds flying and it was chasing and that was, it was, it was, uh, there was a system worked out. Like I could see it. Yep. I cut her loose. She runs, there's birds flying. There's her chasing. When I seen that, it was time to steady them because now I had a dog that was an efficient

57:46bird dog. Now I'm just going to steady it. How many times, how many times out being cut loose before that light switch becomes pretty automatic where you, you can expect that dog to go out and do what you want it to do? I mean, is there sort of like a magic number? Is it different? I assume it's different for every dog, but it's gotta be sort of a certain amount of times, right? You know, the, I think the real answer is it's based on the dog. I mean, I know I've got very good friends of mine that are still, uh, due to genetics are still struggling to try to get dogs

58:20broke, broke because they're visual. Just, they, they love to see it. They love to chase it. But then the flip side of that is I've literally taken young dogs into the grouse woods that had a really good foundation roughed in and was lucky enough to hit a big flock of woodcock. And before I literally got back to the truck, their chase was taken and they were standing their own birds. And I stood them from that point going forward forever. So, you know, it was a, probably, you know, an hour, but the, the, everything lined up, the birds were all there. The woodcock were thick and just bird

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1:02:11Yeah, I mean, one really good day. I specifically remember Ben Bredigan and I, we took a couple puppies into the forest and the woodcock were thick and we had encountered 70 plus birds. And by the end, those dogs looked like they were just all-star champions. I mean, it was a magical day out there. We were riding a high because we hit it so perfectly. You know, a week or two differently might not have been the same scenario, but it set us up for just so much success with those dogs,

1:02:45being able to have that continuous contact over and over and over the repetition and introducing- When we were- when I was in my prime of my training- You're still in your prime, buddy. We literally would try to get away from woodcock. Literally would try to get away from them because there were so many of them all the time. You know, you could probably put a questionnaire out there just how many- what's the most amount of birds anybody's ever seen in one day? It's very hard for our bird hunters today to see 20, 30, 60, 80, 120 birds a day. That doesn't happen anymore.

1:03:19When, you know, 20 years ago, we could go out in the morning, unload up from here from the kennel, have a load of dogs, and be back by 1130, have every dog on the truck into birds, you know, and have a- have 60, 70, 80 spent primers because we had that many flushes on that many pointed birds. It's hard to do that today. The opportunities just aren't what they used to be. Just curious, what do you think the- the all-time high is that you've ever found on a wild bird? Maybe from bobwhite quail in Texas to woodcock in the Northwoods here.

1:03:52The- and I'll have the numbers wrong, but the number for Texas, I believe, was- was in one three-hour outing. I think it was 59 coveys. 59 coveys? Yes. And that- that was- And those are wild birds. Those are all wild birds, and literally you- you almost couldn't get back on the truck to go to the next covey because the dogs would be on point again. And my- my best stay in the grouse woods with the woodcock, uh, was 129 flushes between grouse and woodcock.

1:04:23That's some serious wild bird work. Yeah. That is some serious- and those dogs, man. So, Travis, take- take Sonny's number on- in Texas on wild quail. Yeah. And then our experience in Oklahoma, and our minds were blowing on those numbers with Tucker. I mean, I had to pick Tucker up because he just was covey after covey after covey. Literally had to carry the dog out. But now take that to- we'd have to take that, uh, I don't know, we'd have to 5X that number. That's just- that's amazing. That's awesome.

1:04:57And it's- it's hard to explain to the people today because they've not seen it, but you guys literally, you made bird dogs in 30 days, 60 days. If you run a dog 90 days with that kind of birds, you had a bird dog the rest of your life. Like, I'm talking bird finder, not just dog that run around. You put a bird on- you put a dog on the ground, they're going to point you a covey, a quail, or they're going to find you a grouse. Like, it just- it's just the way it was. Well, and that's why people said,

1:05:27whatever it costs, go take my dog out to the prairie. Go take my dog and just- I want the context. I want as many as absolutely possible. And when people want to get their dog there, the process can take five years for some people to achieve what you did in one morning walk because they simply aren't out there doing it with their dog on- in an area that has that many birds. So the value of getting in your vehicle on a late August morning and driving to Western North Dakota and just going for a walk

1:06:00with your dog with a prime- with a blank shooting pistol to work with your dog where you can see them, the value is life-changing for that dog forever, for the rest of its life. It just takes that I'm going to do it moment. I'm going to do it. I'm going to invest in this dog for three days and we are going to go give her heck because that dog will come back a different creature and a different hunter for the rest. So your question five was my dog gets too close to birds when pointing. You talked about working on steadiness. Question six, when can I start steadiness?

1:06:33When it's efficient. When you have an efficient bird finder, you can start to steady it. What does that look like? You cut the dog loose, there's birds in the air and that dog is chasing it. That's it. It's nothing more than that. You cut it loose and you might find it on point and it's going to punch the birds. You cut it loose again, you're going to find it on point and it's going to punch the birds. When that dog is an efficient bird finder, now this is a wild bird dog application, when it is efficient, you can start to steady it. And that efficiency, that's where people get

1:07:04afraid to let them go because if, oh, in the grouse woods, we've all been there. You could, you might hit a big chunk of hardwood. Efficiency is that dog that moves through that hardwood and goes and finds that elder bottom and starts to hunt birds. So that grouse dog could be, it could be 250 yards away from you on point. That's efficiency. It could be that South Texas dog that just hit a big burn and it might run through that burn and that burn might be four or 500 yards, but it doesn't waste time on that burn. It goes through it to find bird cover. So you might, you might, it might pop up on your Garmin, you know, 450, 650 yards away. I mean, you just putz along

1:07:39until you get there and you've got yourself a cubby of quail pointed. So the efficiency is to be able to run and find birds, not just run. That's when you start the steadiness. So then question seven, I need help with steadiness and retrieving. Yep. Build a foundation to take the chase and, and retrieving is, and boy, oh boy, this will probably get some, some hate mail, but retrieving is overrated that, that the human wants to see the perfect picture, right? They want to be able to

1:08:11handle it, have the bird pointed, be able to shoot the bird, have the dog, bring the bird back, put it in your bag and go drink a beer and talk about how great the day was. But I believe with all my heart that the, the, the, what really, really drives these guys is the hunt. They want to hunt. The retrieve is, is secondary to them. So when they're efficient with bird finders, that's when I would, when me personally, that's when I would start to worry about their retrieving. Up until that point, I didn't care. Um, as long as they would hunt dead and put me on that bird where

1:08:43that bird went down, I'm good. Once they're efficient, now I'm going to start to work with their steadiness. But aren't you developing those habits that you don't want? If you're not getting after it right away to have the dog retrieve the bird? I mean, cause then you, like you said, if you're throwing a ball, you throw in a bumper, that's what they'll do. They're not, you're not working with the bird. So then if they go through this hunt with you and they don't retrieve it, are they then set up for, that's their picture. That's what they're going to do. Starting, starting with the end in mind, I'm way more, I'm, me personally was always concerned

1:09:16about the hunt. No different than the bomb dogs. You know, they, they want them to be possessive with the ball because they believe that they work for the ball and there can be some conversation about that. I believe that they, they're working for the hunt. They want to be able to hunt. So in my upland career, I wanted them hunting, not necessarily retrieving. Truth be told, I would drop a cocker off the back of the truck to do the retrieving because it gave the pointing dog a break. But, uh, if they've got good hunt, my experience has been, you're going to have good

1:09:49retrieve because if that relationship has been built and they work with you and they work, you're together, you're a, you're a team. When you, when you don't let them run and you, you almost forced them to hunt dead, they're going to find that bird because they know that finding that bird will get them, give them the ability to go back to the hunt. And then the, you know, after they're efficient, that next winter, we finish out their real intense retrieving work. And the next year you've got a finished product. Now what Jordan is doing is completely different. He's got with the, with the Wells method of fetch, he's got this retrieving

1:10:22done all early on because there's no real force in it. There's no real, uh, it's just, it's not a portable program. So he's been able to do what nobody else has done is to take these puppies and get them retrieving right from the get go. So he's got steadiness, retrieve, handle all in one, all in one package. He's working it out in the course. Yeah. He's working it out in the course. Yeah. Okay. Travis, just to answer that. I mean, uh, rip, uh, Clyde is now, what are they

1:10:52Sonny? They're about a year old? Yeah. I think they're about a year old, the pups that we have. And, uh, he just started picking stuff up and bring it. He's just bringing it to me. Like, yeah, cool. But let's go run, let's go work and find stuff. Like he's bringing beer cans and shoes and socks. No, he's bringing, I might have a bumper out there. You really got a laugh out of George. Yeah. No, he's not bringing, not that kind of stuff. Real retrieving stuff, but I'm not

1:11:27like, I'm with Sonny. I'm like an English pointer. Let's go find birds. Let's hunt and let's use our mind and our head. And he's going to bring birds. And then, you know, those, those English pointers have the same amount of desire to retrieve, not necessarily like a Labrador, but for, for a pointing breed, they have that desire to retrieve, but they would rather run. They would rather hunt, but just with a little bit of exposure, they're just as good of a retriever as anything else in my previous experience. It's just not that big of a deal. They're going to do it.

1:11:57Yeah. I mean, there's so many, uh, people out there that are like, ah, that pointer is, he's not going to bring a bird back. And, you know, there's a lot of breeders out there that want to highlight. Let's say their English setter, for instance, my English setter loves water, loves retrieving. Well, I mean, like I look at Daisy, my dog, and she goes out duck and goose hunting with us because she wants that bird so bad. It doesn't matter if I put a 10 pound weight on her, she's going to swim across that marsh and grab the duck and bring it back. I mean, it's just,

1:12:28she just wants it so bad. So she's an incredible waterfall dog to the point where she wants it so bad. It's annoying. And I don't even like bringing her with. Yeah. That's a presentation. That's a good presentation of what you want her to do, starting with the end game in mind. Yeah. But she's an upland bird hunter pointing breed dog. And there she is out in the marsh with us retrieving everything. I mean, I haven't retrieved a duck in four years, probably. If she goes and grabs every single one of them, she'd be so mad if I did. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Do you put the duck in your

1:12:59mouth, Travis? I'm just asking for a friend. Those are good questions, George. Those are good questions. Don't you? No. But anyway. Moving on. Unless it's a coot. Yeah, of course. Right. Number eight. My dog is older. Can we still train him? Absolutely. The negative of training an older dog is you don't have as many years to enjoy it. But just like that five-year-old setter that we did in Connecticut, did a bird introduction on it, that dog will absolutely hunt if the genetics are there. It's just you don't have as many years to enjoy it. When people say you can't teach an old

1:13:36dog new tricks, my response to them is that's just pure laziness. And then they look at me like, who are you? You jerk. But the reality is, then I say, have you tried? And they can't honestly respond by saying yes. For the most part, that's how the conversation goes. I said, any dog will learn if you're willing to invest into that dog. It doesn't matter the age. And then they start asking questions. Well, what? And then like the intrigue, the light bulb goes off

1:14:06for them. And I said, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just telling you the honest truth. Every dog wants to learn, can learn no matter the age. And the reality is that when people say that, it's just laziness. Absolutely. For sure. Number nine, when can I introduce the gun?

1:14:29That's also just an overrated question. We did gun introduction with our baby puppies right from the get-go. As soon as they liked birds, we would introduce a gun. And it was that simple. As soon as they liked to chase a bird, the gunfire comes into play. And it was a blank gun that would be banged into the ground behind my back. If they compare the gun and the bird together, you're not going to have gun issues. In 30 plus years of training dogs, I'd never seen one gun-shy dog that was born

1:15:01gun-shy. Not one. I fixed a lot of dogs that had gun issues. And I'm not saying that there can't be because there can be. But we fixed a lot of dogs with gun issues. And probably only two that were unfixable that actually were gun-shy dogs. Those other dogs, I would call them gun confused. They did not understand where the bang came from. And it was paired with the bird. So then it caused fear because somebody just did it backwards. But if they want to chase a bird and

1:15:31they want to engage in a bird and you pair that gun with that bird, they're golden. You can start that stuff right from the get-go. Right away, as a puppy, as soon as they've got a bird in their mouth and they're carrying it around and they're loving life, you can do it with a nine-week-old puppy? When they want to chase a bird. If they're willing to want to chase a bird across the pasture, chase a bird across the field, you can absolutely introduce that gun. Now, is it a 12-gauge? Absolutely not. It's a .22 that's going to be banged into the ground behind my back because it's dead, it's dull, but it gives them that association that there's going to be a pop, there's going to be a bang,

1:16:06that's going to come with the presentation of that bird. Gotcha. So the understanding there, Travis, is, I mean, what Sonny's saying is that that starter pistol or whatever, that starter pistol using is physically down in the grass, in the dirt, and behind your body, and the pup is running the opposite direction and thoroughly engaged in chase. And that focus is on that bird and he hears the pop, it's a pop because it's, the sound is diminished by being in the ground and whatnot. And then we gradually don't bury it in the ground, right, Sonny? The thing about gunfire, the real thing

1:16:43about gunfire is don't ever be the guy that's going to see what's going to happen. You know, let's take him to the gun range and see how he does. Let's bang the 410 and see what he does. Don't be that guy. Prepare and have a game plan of how it's going to work. You need to know exactly what the outcome is going to be. And the outcome it's going to be, he likes to chase birds. Therefore, when he's chasing a bird, I'm going to bang the gun. I know exactly what the outcome is going to be. He's going to stay engaged in chasing the bird. Period. Just don't be the guy that just wants to

1:17:16see what's going to happen. Have you ever seen a dog chasing a bird and you put the gun behind your back into the ground and pull the trigger and it comes running back to you? With problem dog, dog that have already had issues, yes. But puppies that have been started, right? Never. Not one. Never, ever, ever. So don't be worried taking your puppy out there. When your dog is chasing the bird, put the, put the pop in a, in a non, well, I'll just let it be there. Okay. Um, number 10, should I hunt my young puppy with my older dog? You are who you hang with.

1:17:52So if you've got, if you, uh, what I wouldn't be doing is I wouldn't be running a pointing breed with a flushing breed. And then I wouldn't be running my pointing breeds with my buddy's pointing dog that are not broke because you are who you hang with. And if they're going to not back, if they're going to punch birds, your puppy will, will sure enough do it. We, we would, um, in the grouse woods and in Texas, we literally would take an, just a good, solid broke dog that wouldn't be too aggravated by puppies and let that broke dog go find birds and literally open

1:18:22up crate doors and let puppies out. Well, after two, three times of that, they started pointing, they started backing, but it helped them get to the birds. Well, now they knew what to expect. So you'd open up crate doors and they would all go to hunt. So is it, is it necessary? Is it, you know, some, some guys say I need to get a younger dog because I'm going to have them learn from the older dog and they're going to be as good as the old dog. I'm not, I can't swallow that. It's the, the young dog is not going to learn all it needs to know from the old dog that you have to be there to help mentor it along. But is there some benefit? Sure. Because the older dog can offer

1:18:55up opportunity. It knows how to find the bird. So. Which is to Sonny's point with Clyde, I didn't run him necessarily rip because rip wasn't, wouldn't be tolerant of that puppy coming up and banging into him. So I ran him with Boone and Boone didn't give a hoot and Boone would lock up on the, in the grouse woods, lock up in that grouse and that puppy would see him and either, you know, he would slow down and look and be like back in and then go get curious and then literally walk

1:19:27right past Boone and Boone just, you know, stand there. But it helped. Looking at him on Sinai and him, you fool. You have so much to learn. Yeah. And to Sonny's point, it helped, it helped us just move the pace along because the old dog goes and finds birds and I know he's steady and you know what he's going to do. And then the puppy could go out there and he saw a lot of grouse last year as a little guy. Saw a lot of grouse. Just help me get to the end game faster instead of just walk, you know. Yep. That's exactly. I trained

1:19:58that way for years. Okay. Last question on your list. At what age can I hunt with my puppy? We hunted first year dogs, meaning puppies year after year, after year, after year. So the earliest puppies that I would probably work with were, let's just call them,

1:20:19they were probably three months old. And they were all running, pointing, backing due to the exposure they had before I went south. And it just was a timing of their age. They were just baby puppies that had good exposure and a good bird introduction here at the kennel, which was a presentation with pigeons, with launchers, with auto backers and gunfire. Well, when I got to Texas, those puppies were with me. So we would cut them loose and we would hunt them. And if they would run around enough to point themselves a covey of birds and their litter mates would back and

1:20:51everybody would stack up like cordwood, we'd walk in there and bang a bird. And they would go chase that bird, that shot bird down. They would catch it. They would fight over it. They would pull it into 15 pieces and they would eat it. And we would move on and go do the next one.

1:21:04And that, that'll also open up for some conversation about puppies eating birds, but we did it all the time. Yep. The, well, when you say it'll open up conversation for puppies eating birds, elaborate. Well, because somebody, you know, there's the conversation out that, well, if he eats birds, you're going to create hard mouth. I just think that's ridiculous. We, you know, go back to simple, stupid, you know, how are they going to hunt together? What are they going to do together? What are they going to do naturally? Well, they're going to hunt that bird and they're going to try to eat it. So we would, I would hunt, we would keep puppies together right up until the

1:21:36point where we would start having little puppy dog fights, which means that they would run down a pen raised quail or a pigeon back here at the kennel. And you would start to literally have pecking order established to where the little old, the more dominant puppies. And I'm talking, you know, puppies that might be 10, 12 weeks old. You would start to have dog fights over that bird. Then we would start to separate them and run them separately. Gotcha. Cause the competition side of it, the drive is so high that you've created this drive in these dogs. Well, I mean, obviously the genetics did it, but then you're encouraging it. The prey drive keeps building and building and then the competition kicks in,

1:22:10right? Yeah. Yeah. I would, you know, back in the day, I would have no problem if a dog wanted to growl, a puppy wanted to growl at me for a bird. It just put a smile on my face because that's his mental possession. He wants it. You know, he loves the hunt. He's claiming it as his own. You know, that's just awesome, buddy. We can work with you. Like you, you're going to have a great future. Then you can shape and mold and eliminate that dog trying to eat the bird. I know some dogs that are more than three years old that still want to eat the bird. And then you see the handler

1:22:41basically running over there and trying to like, you know, rip it out. And I'm like, holy cow, how did they get past that stage? I mean, what are we doing wrong there, Sonny? That, that, that good, back to square one, you know, back to that coursework, back to that foundation, back to that relationship. It's my bird, not your bird. And that, that, that goes away almost instantly. Yeah. Because, um, let me, it's because Sonny with that puppy possessing that bird, we're talking a little dude or a little dudette. And then at some point you're stepping in and saying,

1:23:14okay, I'm really proud of you, but now I'm going to take over and it is my bird, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, yeah, go ahead. So what happened was, Travis, now, if you didn't step in and be that leader and say, okay, great job and not get excited and not worry about it, but then show the pup that I am the pack leader, great job, but now it's my bird versus that dog that's three years old now was never taught

1:23:45or never learned that at some point the leader's going to step in because we all work together as a pack and we got that bird, great job, but now I'm going to step in and now it's mine. Yeah. And you just, you just, we just walked into a whole nother podcast because what's happening, and I just want to just hit on this real quick, what's happening today with today's people and their dogs, and this is in the pet industry. This could be in the detection world. This could be in the upland world. Nobody's correcting that puppy for that quail back when they were a puppy.

1:24:17Now they're showing up or they're calling me on the phone because now they actually do have an issue. And when we talk about the, when we talk about what should have happened as a puppy, these individuals look at me like I have a third eye and they're telling me, you know, I knew that. I knew that. That's what I would have did 20 years ago. And what would I have done? I would have grabbed that puppy by the scruff of his neck, taken that bird and probably bounced him off the ground. Well, we've been, due to the, the world that we live in and the social media that we're a part of, all that stuff has now been kind of marked as wrong. You know, that's, that's physical abuse

1:24:51and that's, you know, that's wrong. So many of these people that are showing up with these aggressive dogs when I, when we bring this program around to them and they're old enough to know better, you know, they're, they're George's age where their, their attitude is, I would have absolutely done that 20 years ago. I don't know why, why I'm not doing that stuff now. And it's due to, we've gotten away from, you know, probably what, what's right in my opinion. So. Well, okay. So we, this is a text I got from, I'm not going to say this person's name, but this,

1:25:27this is real stuff. And this gentleman is trying to figure out what to do. Hey, Travis, given you spend time with some smart bird dog guys, I figured I'd get your two cents on this. My dog has recently become a teenager and only has one thing on his mind. I was dead set on not neutering him. But at this rate, I'm second guessing that any thoughts or insights at the moment, I can't imagine him even hunting alongside other dogs. Yeah. Boy, oh boy. Have we, have we had that text in that email hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. And then those

1:26:03dogs are either rehomed and now there's somebody else's problem or they're disposed of. And he's identified his problem because he's talking about, he has a teenager and now that teenager is out of control back to the basics. Just help that puppy, mentor that puppy, partner with that puppy, have value to that puppy. So then when he hits his teenage years, he's not second guessing your judgment as much. So that individual puppy needed physical correction. Boy, this won't be well received, but he needed physical correction as a puppy because of his personality.

1:26:35Because that's what the mother would have done in the pack. And now you're taking over the role of the leader of the pack or the mother not putting it in its place, correct? Yes. So now he has a teenager that now has an opinion. Now it has a vote. That's that puppy. So now he's in trouble. Like now he has a serious problem. And to neuter, you know, that's what, you know, that's a, that's a debate. But the neutering at this stage in the game is not going to help because the habit has been established. My experience with neutering has been, you will

1:27:08take away the scent that they give off to the other intact males. Therefore, they don't have any value. Therefore, the other males won't interact with them. But the habits of the marking and the behavior, now it's a habit. By neutering, you're really not going to, you're not going to take that away. So, but to discipline that teenager, to reboot that teenager, to kind of restart that teenager, absolutely can be done. There's 100% that can be done, but you need to be committed. Okay. What does that commitment look like? We'll wrap the podcast up here with this.

1:27:42And what does that commitment look like as a leader taking over and basically telling the dog, you're done doing this. This ain't, this ain't happening anymore. You're in my pack. I'm the leader. This is how it's going to be. What does that look like? Go for it, George. I don't want to be politically incorrect.

1:28:02Well, you jump in wherever you want to, but Travis, it comes back to, uh, let me give you the, the top, the things in order here. It's leadership, it's structure, it's boundaries, it's mental stimulation and physical stimulation. It goes back to the very first question. We're at the end of the podcast here. We're almost done. And it leads right back to the very first thing we talked about. Be the leader, give the dog some structure and boundaries, help them learn, and you will get to the end game that you want. Does it also mean taking away some freedom?

1:28:36That's the structure and boundaries. Absolutely. He doesn't, it's not allowed up on the couch. I'm going to take a wild guess and say, this dog gets to walk around and put his nose in everything and get up on the couch or go to the door and go through the door before I do, or someone knocks on the door and maybe it vocalizes, maybe it doesn't vocalize, but it charges the door. It does, it does unwanted behavior. It's in charge that, that dog, that puppy thinks it's in charge and it's been

1:29:08given way, way too much. Um, it hasn't been given boundaries. It owns the house. It goes when whatever room it wants to go to, whenever it wants to go there. And so back to give it some structure and boundaries and give it a tap and help it, help it learn that by giving it a task in the house. Such as? Well, let's give it, let's start at the crate. First of all, is the dog in a crate? If it's not, let's introduce it to a crate and then that'll help us, uh, help the dog learn that there

1:29:43is structure and boundaries. And from there, and that's, that's just like a, that's such a simple step. And it, and it puts a boundary between us and the pup and, and it can give the dog the mental stimulation to process, okay, I'm not allowed to come out of that crate until it's asked to come out of that crate. And that door becomes that, that boundary. And it's not us putting our hands on the dog and the dog can, the dog will just start processing that and realizing it'll, it'll help

1:30:15the dog learn. There's, there's a, there's accountability there. The accountability is huge and they, they have to assume some accountability for themselves. Um, you know, and literally here we are at the end of the podcast, we're literally talking about what we started to talk about, like how it, how it started, but they're, they're just kids. Um, and if we allow our children to act the way our dogs act, the outcome is not going to be good. I mean, it's,

1:30:45it's just not going to be good. And for some reason, we don't see the need to hold our dogs accountable the same way that we would hold ourselves accountable. So, and by taking things away, they ultimately get more freedom, but they can't, you can't give a young child, you know, the keys to the truck on a case of beer, nothing good is going to come out of that. They have to earn that right. They has to be, there's a process of what they have to go through to earn the right to be an adult. And it's the same exact thing with these dogs. And that's where people are dropping the ball, period. It's, we're right back to square one with the problems that we're dealing with.

1:31:20All right. I'm going to send them a link. Tommy's got to listen to this. And then everything goes back to square one. That's, that's really, we've said it multiple times, the foundation, and then going back again and again until you overcome it. Um, I think you guys have, if people want to see this in person, working with dogs, you have an upcoming seminar in August in Wisconsin, correct? Yep. Correct. August 29th, uh, Saturday, August 29th and Sunday,

1:31:51August 30th. And it's in, uh, it's by Janesville, Wisconsin, Orfordville, Wisconsin at Blondhaven Hunt Club. Uh, so. What part of Wisconsin is that? South central. Okay. Southern Wisconsin, about, uh, 30 miles north of the Illinois border, right off the interstate. Okay. Yep. Got it. And I might, um, I might show up to that one with a little tiny puppy and a very excited young bird dog handler. TBD. Yeah. Um, I'm not, I, wow. I can't believe you just said that,